'If you eat meat, you're a murderer' - A very silly statement

The main problem with your essay is that you don't properly defend your thesis: meat is not murder.

Well I can't properly defend it or else i'd publish a book. I'm not a proper essay writer, just a guy expressing an opinion and hoping for intelligent, constructive and balanced feedback, (which at last, this is) I don't consider it an essay, that would take too much time.

And.. I didn't title it 'Meat Isn't Murder' did I. That wouldn't strictly be correct because technically meat IS murder because it comes from an unnatural and in most cases violent death. I don't dispute that, but calling most of the human race murderers is unproductive and tantamount to calling those who don't believe in your chosen deity an infidel. Too many divides in humanity as it is without veggies and non veggies bickering, and even veggies and vegans on occasion. We do actually agree on a lot and those of us who are non or semi-vegetarians - our biggest crime if anything IS laziness, as Gregor Samsa said, not unreasonably.

Thanks for the Bangkok vegetarian link earlier by the way. I already am familiar with some of those places.

You condone torture of humans who are cruel. That makes you as complicit in the cycle of violence as the animal abusers.

Yeah... I don't really agree with that. Watching one of those PETA videos fills me with rage. I wouldn't torture one of those bastards myself but if I read that somebody had caught one in the act and beaten him up, I'd feel the same as I'm sure we all do when a bullfighter is gored. I'm sure you wouldn't shed a tear. Let's go with karma then. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.

I have seen footage of orcas playing with their food (live seals) for lengthy periods of time--tossing it up in the air, batting it around, before finally putting it out if its misery. All done seemingly for fun--entertainment, pleasure. Should we murder those orcas?

Well I didn't murder my cat playing with the not-yet-dead mouse I describe in my opener. Though it wasn't nice to see, I wasn't witnessing a being who should know better taking delight in inflicting suffering. There's all sorts of suffering in the animal kingdom. This is your weakest statement, but the rest of your post was challenging and without doubt the best reply I've had yet.
 
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even though I consume the flesh of animals about a few times every week, I am strongly against the "meat industry" and the fact that in places like the usa it is basically subsidized by tax dollars :cool:
as for being murderer, sorry man, not gonna guilt trip me with that one :straightface:
I feel bad about the senseless slaughter of actual human beings which I took part in as a soldier oh so long ago :o
so yeah, for me, its just will always be backwards that in a world filled with so much human misery, injustice and wrongs that animals take up so much of many people's hearts
I am speaking of course of the fake do gooders, the "I am better than you" ranks that fill the world's vegetarians(particularly in Western countries where so much of the world's misery of all kinds originates do to complicity of their largely docile, lazy, ignorant populations)
you know, all those f***ers that have never even been anywhere or done anything, but have access to the internet :crazy:
not those who not only don't eat animals, but are actually good people, I suppose a few may even post here :thumb:
but not as many as some others would like to believe I bet :eek:
 
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If you eat an animal that has been killed for your consumption then you're culpable for that animal being killed. The definition of murder in this sense is the unlawful deliberate killing of a human. More accurately it would be meat is slaughter but that's not as hard hitting.

The one line in the song that never tallied for me is a death for no reason is murder, that never made any sense.
 
If you eat an animal that has been killed for your consumption then you're culpable for that animal being killed. The definition of murder in this sense is the unlawful deliberate killing of a human. More accurately it would be meat is slaughter but that's not as hard hitting.

The one line in the song that never tallied for me is a death for no reason is murder, that never made any sense.

i think that line is a counter to what the popular public argument against vegetarianism was. they would say i have to eat and im not rich to justify eatting animals but thats not really true and definitely not in todays time. i think hes calling it murder on purpose because to him animals are on the same level of people. same with bullfighter. thats the point of it i think. to provoke an argument where he can say animals are of the same value as people. possibly more so since they cause less destruction to the planet and themselves and other living things. animals are like children and not evil in there actions while people are animals still but capable of evil and responsible for it etc.
 
Fair point but what about people eating animals a couple of thousand years ago, or even a couple of hundred?

Back then, before we were greedy and conditioned and conditioned to be greedy - we were just omnivores doing our thing like pigs and dogs.
 
Meat Is Murder If You Are Are The One Who Killed The Animal; I Don't Kill So I Don't Mind Eating Meat

That's my response song to Meat Is Murder.
 
Well I can't properly defend it or else i'd publish a book. I'm not a proper essay writer, just a guy expressing an opinion and hoping for intelligent, constructive and balanced feedback, (which at last, this is) I don't consider it an essay, that would take too much time.

It has the potential of being a polemical essay. :)

And.. I didn't title it 'Meat Isn't Murder' did I. That wouldn't strictly be correct because technically meat IS murder because it comes from an unnatural and in most cases violent death. I don't dispute that, but calling most of the human race murderers is unproductive and tantamount to calling those who don't believe in your chosen deity an infidel. Too many divides in humanity as it is without veggies and non veggies bickering, and even veggies and vegans on occasion. We do actually agree on a lot and those of us who are non or semi-vegetarians - our biggest crime if anything IS laziness, as Gregor Samsa said, not unreasonably.

No, but that was the topic of your post, no? I think if you make the statement "'If you eat meat, you're a murderer' is a very silly statement" then you must state why. You must prove it erroneous. I would start by defining the concepts murder and meat. I would state that animals cannot be murdered as murder is a legal term that only applies to humans. So non-human animal flesh--meat--is not the byproduct of murder. The person who kills an animal therefore is not a murderer. Neither is the consumer. The only meat that can be procured through the act of murder is thus human flesh obtained after intentionally killing someone with malice--but not because of self defense, war, or accident. It would be much easier and more logical to argue meat is immoral than meat is murder.

Thanks for the Bangkok vegetarian link earlier by the way. I already am familiar with some of those places.

You are welcome.

Yeah... I don't really agree with that. Watching one of those PETA videos fills me with rage. I wouldn't torture one of those bastards myself but if I read that somebody had caught one in the act and beaten him up, I'd feel the same as I'm sure we all do when a bullfighter is gored. I'm sure you wouldn't shed a tear. Let's go with karma then. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.

I know I am in the minority but I disagree with that. You can't be opposed of cruelty, murder, or torture if you yourself agree to it. I think capital punishment is murder and that it is immoral. I can't condemn the act of murder while sanctioning it at the same time.

Well I didn't murder my cat playing with the not-yet-dead mouse I describe in my opener. Though it wasn't nice to see, I wasn't witnessing a being who should know better taking delight in inflicting suffering. There's all sorts of suffering in the animal kingdom. This is your weakest statement, but the rest of your post was challenging and without doubt the best reply I've had yet.

I appreciate that.
 
Meat Is Murder If You Are Are The One Who Killed The Animal; I Don't Kill So I Don't Mind Eating Meat

That's my response song to Meat Is Murder.

What if someone ate your slain pooch (hypothetically, if you had one)?
 
realitybites said:
You must prove it erroneous.

40 years of age and I have to look up 'erroneous'. :straightface:

Okay, what about my second paragraph down in post #21, did that not prove it a little bit erroneous? :)

It would be much easier and more logical to argue meat is immoral than meat is murder.

Or we could agree that animal cruelty has gotten out of control as humanity has become more and more industrialized and detached from nature and seek to stamp it out with the landslide minority that our united views would have on the doorstep of parliament/congress.

I know I am in the minority but I disagree with that. You can't be opposed of cruelty, murder, or torture if you yourself agree to it. I think capital punishment is murder and that it is immoral. I can't condemn the act of murder while sanctioning it at the same time.

I can when karma is flipped that way. You can not and I respect that but at least you haven't said 'well killing evil people would only bring us down to their level' because as much as I respect a pacifist, those ways haven't worked and evil still thrives and runs the show. I'm with you on capital punishment up to a point, but there really are some people in the world who shouldn't be here who would otherwise be jailed OR on death row were they not in a position of immunity. If you had absolute power, how would you deal with the worlds worst? I say we should (it's a dream I know) at the very least have them put to sleep humanely.

Gregor Samsa said:
What if someone ate your slain pooch (hypothetically, if you had one)?

I got this Ryan.

Nobody's pets are being killed and served, at least not in the west. Korea maybe. I know what you're saying, and if I lived on a farm I couldn't make a connection with a cow or a pig knowing it was going to be slaughtered. Naturally, we connect with mammals as they're more similar to us than molluscs or arachnids. We in the west identify with cats and dogs so it's a good question. Sorry I'm not going anywhere with this, I can't nail it. It's almost 4am in Bangkok, my thoughts are foggy.

Okay, let's put aside the eating meat/not eating meat part and focus on the cruelty.

Omnivores are not anti vegetarian/vegan, it's only vegetarians/vegans that are anti omnivore (and there's no such thing as a human carnivore) so instead of an 'us and them' attitude, we should acknowledge that ALL of us despise cruelty and thus unite and take over. The 1% of humanity that is void of any compassion and relishes or permits the infliction of suffering would not stand a chance.
 
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Omnivores are not anti vegetarian/vegan, it's only vegetarians/vegans that are anti omnivore (and there's no such thing as a human carnivore) so instead of an 'us and them' attitude, we should acknowledge that ALL of us despise cruelty and thus unite and take over. The 1% of humanity that is void of any compassion and relishes or permits the infliction of suffering would not stand a chance.

Not true. People who eat animals are often annoyed by those that don't. On top of that a lot of people just don't give a shit about animal suffering and those don't amount to 1% of us.
 
Charlie Cheswick said:
Not true. People who eat animals are often annoyed by those that don't.

That's because those who don't are often saying things like 'If you eat meat, you're a murderer'. :rolleyes:

How would you vegetarians and vegans feel if a huge celebrity got on stage and said "If vegetarians care about animals so much, why are they eating all their food?" to a roar of applause? You'd think "f*** that idiot" yet if a huge celebrity pop star who was NOT a vegetarian was seen in a vegetarian restaurant then instead of being happy, the majority of you would be fighting to be the first to call him or her a hypocrite!

On top of that a lot of people just don't give a shit about animal suffering and those don't amount to 1% of us.

Well those who do give a shit outweigh the ones who don't. If vegetarian figureheads like Morrissey could be a little more impartial and not alienate those who do eat meat, or 'flesh' as he rather pretentiously puts it. It boils down to focussing on what unites us and NOT what separates us. Everyone from Martin Luthur King to George Carlin to Russell Brand would agree with that sentiment. I'm not flamed for it here, which is something. It is simply avoided for some strange reason.

Do you know how many omnivores would convert if you were less born again Christian about your diet and more focussed on what we DO have in common?

Out of curiosity, can anyone tell me if Morrissey refuses to work with or socialize with non-vegetarians? Is nobody in his family or circle of friends or band an omnivore?

I wouldn't be surprised if he refuses to have anything to do with anybody not vegetarian or vegan, and I don't think that is helpful to the cause at all. Love the man's work and all but I wouldn't be afraid to tell him that some of his comments only put a silly hat on vegetarianism instead of uniting us against unnecessary suffering and torture whilst accepting that not everybody is going to quit meat. Think of tribes in the Amazon and teenagers in Mozambique, they ain't ever going to be vegetarians. The idea is born from industrial farming and indifference to suffering WAY more than it is an aversion to meat or where it comes from. As I've said, most of you are vegetarians because of the cruelty, right?

Try my way, that doesn't mean becoming an omnivore it simply means being more accepting of those who aren't the same as you and finding common ground.

It basically means going against what is built into all of us, and I don't expect anyone to do it. How the f*** is the planet going to rid itself of us if we all start to get along?

And trust me it will, and when it does the animals will thrive and deer will graze in Manhatten and Oxford etc..
 
That's because those who don't are often saying things like 'If you eat meat, you're a murderer'. :rolleyes:

How would you vegetarians and vegans feel if a huge celebrity got on stage and said "If vegetarians care about animals so much, why are they eating all their food?" to a roar of applause? You'd think "f*** that idiot" yet if a huge celebrity pop star who was NOT a vegetarian was seen in a vegetarian restaurant then instead of being happy, the majority of you would be fighting to be the first to call him or her a hypocrite!



Well those who do give a shit outweigh the ones who don't. If vegetarian figureheads like Morrissey could be a little more impartial and not alienate those who do eat meat, or 'flesh' as he rather pretentiously puts it. It boils down to focussing on what unites us and NOT what separates us. Everyone from Martin Luthur King to George Carlin to Russell Brand would agree with that sentiment. I'm not flamed for it here, which is something. It is simply avoided for some strange reason.

Do you know how many omnivores would convert if you were less born again Christian about your diet and more focussed on what we DO have in common?

Out of curiosity, can anyone tell me if Morrissey refuses to work with or socialize with non-vegetarians? Is nobody in his family or circle of friends or band an omnivore?

I wouldn't be surprised if he refuses to have anything to do with anybody not vegetarian or vegan, and I don't think that is helpful to the cause at all. Love the man's work and all but I wouldn't be afraid to tell him that some of his comments only put a silly hat on vegetarianism instead of uniting us against unnecessary suffering and torture whilst accepting that not everybody is going to quit meat. Think of tribes in the Amazon and teenagers in Mozambique, they ain't ever going to be vegetarians. The idea is born from industrial farming and indifference to suffering WAY more than it is an aversion to meat or where it comes from. As I've said, most of you are vegetarians because of the cruelty, right?

Try my way, that doesn't mean becoming an omnivore it simply means being more accepting of those who aren't the same as you and finding common ground.

It basically means going against what is built into all of us, and I don't expect anyone to do it. How the f*** is the planet going to rid itself of us if we all start to get along?

And trust me it will, and when it does the animals will thrive and deer will graze in Manhatten and Oxford etc..

fight club will never happen. as for the rest, ok sure
 
Theres often an enlightened message within a misunderstood statment that may not at first be apparent!

Theres been a case recently in the USA of all places, and the USA they recken, has by far the worst inncdence of animals rights vilolation and abuses on earth, were by an orangutang has had his "human rights" defended successfully Id ike 2 add, in a court of law by an army of "human rights" lawers/advocates, 2 be freed from his horrible life of slavery in a circus and be allwowed 2 live the rest of his life in an animal sactuary.

This is definitely a step in the right direction ! :)

The next step is 2 have the same "rights" 4 these poor creatures that are torchered and suffer terrible pain and suffering in medical animal testing labs.
These unforgivable animal tests do not give or offer any informative information whatsoever in curing or treating human desieses and illnesses that cannot be obtained otherwise via more humane ways, absolutely none!

Im 100% againist animal testing! these cruel and disgusting experiments from hell have no place whatsoever in the advancement in medical science !
 
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That's because those who don't are often saying things like 'If you eat meat, you're a murderer'. :rolleyes:

How would you vegetarians and vegans feel if a huge celebrity got on stage and said "If vegetarians care about animals so much, why are they eating all their food?" to a roar of applause? You'd think "f*** that idiot" yet if a huge celebrity pop star who was NOT a vegetarian was seen in a vegetarian restaurant then instead of being happy, the majority of you would be fighting to be the first to call him or her a hypocrite!



Well those who do give a shit outweigh the ones who don't. If vegetarian figureheads like Morrissey could be a little more impartial and not alienate those who do eat meat, or 'flesh' as he rather pretentiously puts it. It boils down to focussing on what unites us and NOT what separates us. Everyone from Martin Luthur King to George Carlin to Russell Brand would agree with that sentiment. I'm not flamed for it here, which is something. It is simply avoided for some strange reason.

Do you know how many omnivores would convert if you were less born again Christian about your diet and more focussed on what we DO have in common?

Out of curiosity, can anyone tell me if Morrissey refuses to work with or socialize with non-vegetarians? Is nobody in his family or circle of friends or band an omnivore?

I wouldn't be surprised if he refuses to have anything to do with anybody not vegetarian or vegan, and I don't think that is helpful to the cause at all. Love the man's work and all but I wouldn't be afraid to tell him that some of his comments only put a silly hat on vegetarianism instead of uniting us against unnecessary suffering and torture whilst accepting that not everybody is going to quit meat. Think of tribes in the Amazon and teenagers in Mozambique, they ain't ever going to be vegetarians. The idea is born from industrial farming and indifference to suffering WAY more than it is an aversion to meat or where it comes from. As I've said, most of you are vegetarians because of the cruelty, right?

Try my way, that doesn't mean becoming an omnivore it simply means being more accepting of those who aren't the same as you and finding common ground.

It basically means going against what is built into all of us, and I don't expect anyone to do it. How the f*** is the planet going to rid itself of us if we all start to get along?

And trust me it will, and when it does the animals will thrive and deer will graze in Manhatten and Oxford etc..

Give peace a chance and all that.
 
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