with Morrissey fans supporting Morrissey's racist remarks...

that aint no excuse. no use blaming your upbringing for your racism. if youve got a brain of your own youll use it

Oh no no...I had no racism in my upbringing I can assure you...I made my own opinions through my own likes and dislikes.

No one is allowed to have a taboo opinion these days. And incidentally I've yet to make a racist remark...:rolleyes:
 
well it's good to know in a way that those supporting morrissey are as racist as the man himself, and that the rational amongst us are against his remark.

I would rather say that the rational amongst us will recall that Morrissey is normally passionate rather than sensible in his approach to wordly affairs, and the he is also prone to express his resulting opinions rather hyperbolically.

Also, that it does not neccessarily make sense to expect a public discourse that shows a minute appreciation of the finer points of the impact of terminology upon liberal sensitivities from an artist who live in virtual isolation, and who has for 30 years shown a remarkable proclivity both for attacking difficult subjects from strange angles and for expressing his views with imagery abusive enough to occasionally trigger police investigation.

Finally, that it's not neccessarily justified to jump to conclusions just because newspaper articles imply them.

Do I think "sub-species" is an appropriate way of referring to the chinese as a nation? No, I don't. But then, I also don't think it's appropriate to describe anyone running a Manchester school as a ghoulish, spineless swine, to argue that DJs should be murdered because they play the wrong kind of music or that particularly obnoxious prime ministers should be guillotined. I or anyone else could translate those as a shocking, hurtful slander against educationalists as a group of people, as incitement to murder and as defence of capital punishment, with at least as much justification as that with which he is currently being labelled a racist. Not to forget that all us meat eaters are murderers (or at least accompplices to murder), that americans are fat, stupid, bigotted bastards, that all female police constables are whores of malicious intent, that annoying parents should be murdered, that stuck-up overly handsome and self-assured playboys should also be murdered, that amorous feelings require the backdrop of human bones, that all people who work lie and that short people look appalling no matter what they do. All of whom are broad, invalid and - if one chooses to take them that way - hugely insulting generalisations about whole classes of people.

I could go on for a long time, even without getting into the even murkier water of things said from the "I" perspective of many of his lyrics. The point is that if you want the kind of writer capable of Meat is Murder or Margaret on the Guillotine, you'll probably have to live with this as well. His pointedness, immediacy and choice of imagery isn't always going to be to your liking.

Unlike most, he doesn't give a considered opinion, he tells - literally, if you look at the interview - how it makes him feel. And how it makes him feel is that people who do or condone what that truly horrific footage shows are beyond....anything. Which I must say I find an entirely understandable and very moral emotional response. Most people talking to newspapers will translate that emotional response into a sensible observation containing the neccessary qualiifications, such as the distinction between acts of cruelty to animals being common in China and the general character of the Chinese as a collective entity. Morrissey, often and presumably deliberately, doesn't - in his statements and lyrics alike. Which I think is something that is very valuable and which is a large reason why he is always worth listening to. Glad though I am that this is not the way public discussion is generally conducted, and frequently though I do not share the sentiment as expressed, I would not have been without it. And God knows we need at least the occasional figure who can get away with speaking like that.

Of course, Morrissey is not automatically excempted from anything just because he's Morrissey. But it is nothing if not irrational to insist on interpreting a single sentence he utters as if we knew nothing else about him, and as if it should be taken in a radically different way than we have for 25 years been taking other, equally provocative statements from the same man. MOrrissey "entering murky waters"? No, really? I thought that was a big chunk of the whole point. This is Morrissey being Morrissey. If that's objectionable mate, you should have found out a loooong while ago.

cheers
 
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I would rather say that the rational amongst us will recall that Morrissey is normally passionate rather than sensible in his approach to wordly affairs, and the he is also prone to express his resulting opinions rather hyperbolically.

Also, that it does not neccessarily make sense to expect a public discourse that shows a minute appreciation of the finer points of the impact of terminology upon liberal sensitivities from an artist who live in virtual isolation, and who has for 30 years shown a remarkable proclivity both for attacking difficult subjects from strange angles and for expressing his views with imagery abusive enough to occasionally trigger police investigation.

Finally, that it's not neccessarily justified to jump to conclusions just because newspaper articles imply them.

Do I think "sub-species" is an appropriate way of referring to the chinese as a nation? No, I don't. But then, I also don't think it's appropriate to describe anyone running a Manchester school as a ghoulish, spineless swine, to argue that DJs should be murdered because they play the wrong kind of music or that particularly obnoxious prime ministers should be guillotined. I or anyone else could translate those as a shocking, hurtful slander against educationalists as a group of people, as incitement to murder and as defence of capital punishment, with at least as much justification as that with which he is currently being labelled a racist. Not to forget that all us meat eaters are murderers (or at least accompplices to murder), that americans are fat, stupid, bigotted bastards, that all female police constables are whores of malicious intent, that annoying parents should be murdered, that stuck-up overly handsome and self-assured playboys should also be murdered, that amorous feelings require the backdrop of human bones, that all people who work lie and that short people look appalling no matter what they do. All of whom are broad, invalid and - if one chooses to take them that way - hugely insulting generalisations about whole classes of people.

I could go on for a long time, even without getting into the even murkier water of things said from the "I" perspective of many of his lyrics. The point is that if you want the kind of writer capable of Meat is Murder or Margaret on the Guillotine, you'll probably have to live with this as well. His pointedness, immediacy and choice of imagery isn't always going to be to your liking.

Unlike most, he doesn't give a considered opinion, he tells - literally, if you look at the interview - how it makes him feel. And how it makes him feel is that people who do or condone what that truly horrific footage shows are beyond....anything. Which I must say I find an entirely understandable and very moral emotional response.

Of course, Morrissey is not automatically excempted from anything just because he's Morrissey. But it is nothing if not irrational to insist on interpreting a single sentence he utters as if we knew nothing else about him, and as if it should be taken in a radically different way than we have for 25 years been taking other, equally provocative statements from the same man. MOrrissey "entering murky waters"? No, really? I thought that was a big chunk of the whole point. This is Morrissey being Morrissey. If that's objectionable mate, you should have found out a loooong while ago.

cheers

Well said, as usual.

This whole debate is absurd. Morrissey is an absurdist who pushes people's buttons.

I think Morrissey has openly condemned the entire human race at several points in his career - he's clearly got it in for the entire species. He loves a relative handful of people on this planet, and the rest could vanish into the ether with nary a tear shed on his part. As someone highly sensitive to the pain and death that humans inflict on the animal kingdom each and every moment, he has cast his judgement.

Perhaps Morrissey should call his next album "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad" and include a cover of this rousing anthem:

Beasts of England, Beasts of Ireland,
Beasts of every land and clime,
Hearken to my joyful tidings
Of the Golden future time.

Soon or late the day is coming,
Tyrant Man shall be o'er thrown,
And the fruitful fields of England
Shall be trod by beasts alone.

Rings shall vanish from our noses,
And the harness from our back,
Bit and spur shall rust forever,
Cruel whips no more shall crack.

Riches more than mind can picture,
Wheat and barley, oats and hay,
Clover, beans and mangel-wurzels
Shall be ours upon that day.

Bright will shine the fields of England,
Purer shall its waters be,
Sweeter yet shall blow its breezes
On the day that sets us free.

For that day we all must labour,
Though we die before it break;
Cows and horses, geese and turkeys,
All must toil for freedom's sake.

Beasts of England, Beasts of Ireland,
Beasts of every land and clime,
Hearken well, and spread my tidings
Of the Golden future time.
 
everyone who owns pets feels indignation with slaughter of them, however when someone calls other ones by "sub-specie" I do believe this one loses your cause of struggling against unfairly treatment of animals.
 

Yeah, this is the asinine kind of response that has driven so many interesting and different points of view away from the Forum.

My God, don't you get tired of polling which flavor ice cream Morrissey likes the best? Great job, you deserve a big pat on the back for lobotomizing the Forum and any interesting discussion that could take place.
 
Morrissey is just against animal cruelty of any kind.
He singled out the Chinese in this case because the abuse of Chinese circus animals recently made the news.
Race doesn't enter into it.
 
Yeah, this is the asinine kind of response that has driven so many interesting and different points of view away from the Forum.

My God, don't you get tired of polling which flavor ice cream Morrissey likes the best? Great job, you deserve a big pat on the back for lobotomizing the Forum and any interesting discussion that could take place.


Then why don't you ignore it and engage my or Anesthesine's post for instance, since you're so fond of discussion? It was a small one-word joke, it's not as if towers like the Mountain of Doom between you and the debate.
 
Yeah, this is the asinine kind of response that has driven so many interesting and different points of view away from the Forum.

My God, don't you get tired of polling which flavor ice cream Morrissey likes the best? Great job, you deserve a big pat on the back for lobotomizing the Forum and any interesting discussion that could take place.

So my lobotomy was successful. I removed your sense of humor. :)
 
Oh no no...I had no racism in my upbringing I can assure you...I made my own opinions through my own likes and dislikes.

No one is allowed to have a taboo opinion these days. And incidentally I've yet to make a racist remark...:rolleyes:


Don't flatter yourself,
By claiming your breaking a "taboo", you are giving yourself credit, when no credit is due.
Being racist doesn't put you in the minority of intelligent people who see through life's veil of lies.
Instead it puts in you in the camp of ignorant half wits, who are so filled with self hate and limited insight that they deal in knee jerk reactions and project ills on to others to make themselves feel better.
I have read a few of your posts on here and as I have said before I know a few people who know of you, you may not have said anything crushingly racist on here (that I know of) but you have certainly implied it.
I know for a fact you are a true racist and not just in a “Scarlet's a lil' bit racist” way, as someone said on here, either.
Saying “I don’t like black people”, which you have stated in a few emails to different people I know of, is awful (not to mention some of the other things you get up to)- Of course, you are one step away from a care in the community type but that is no excuse.
I wouldn’t usually be so rude to anyone, especially someone I haven’t met but I really don’t see what’s funny about snide, slightly hidden racist remarks- enough is far too much.
I feel sorry for Morrissey having fans like this. The horrid truth is there are racists who are quite happy to claim Morrissey as own.
It’s one thing to miss the England of old, that has been elbowed out by a multi cultural world and to say the country is becoming over crowded (a lot of us, black and white feel this way), it’s quite another to hate and blame people of a different skin culture- it should be noted that in the 80s Morrissey used to speak about his horror that American culture had taken over England).
What gets to me, is it’s journalists with their lies, trying to make a name for themselves that are the true villains and trouble makers not Morrissey, yes Moz is a wind up merchant and yes he is far from politically correct but he isn’t racist.
Because he is an easy target the media world have been prodding away for years, until it’s got to the point where it’s a hoary case of “no smoke with out fire”.
People are so blinded by the years of smoke, that they don’t see it’s the press holding the matches.
This latest case is one of the silliest yet, all Morrissey said was “you can't help but feel the Chinese are a subspecies”, he didn’t say they WERE, he said you can’t help but FEEL they were.
I would say most of us, who care dearly about animals feel the same about people when they see them mistreat animals in horrific ways. If Morrissey would have said the same thing about child abusers no one would said a word (people often say pedophiles are not human). It may seem like I am stretching the point but I for one feel that animal abuse is akin to child abuse.
 
I do not agree with what Morrissey said.
That doesn't mean I am not his fan.
I just wish he's worded his sentence more carefully, because
for someone who claims to not be racist, it came out sounding
very racist.:straightface:
 
I'm watching a Louis Theroux documentary about Nazis. These people are hateful racists. Watch that, then think about Morrissey's offhand statement in defense of animals, and the difference should be clear. It makes it seem absurd to try and call Morrissey a racist.
 
Don't flatter yourself,
By claiming your breaking a "taboo", you are giving yourself credit, when no credit is due.
Being racist doesn't put you in the minority of intelligent people who see through life's veil of lies.
Instead it puts in you in the camp of ignorant half wits, who are so filled with self hate and limited insight that they deal in knee jerk reactions and project ills on to others to make themselves feel better.
I have read a few of your posts on here and as I have said before I know a few people who know of you, you may not have said anything crushingly racist on here (that I know of) but you have certainly implied it.
I know for a fact you are a true racist and not just in a “Scarlet's a lil' bit racist” way, as someone said on here, either.
Saying “I don’t like black people”, which you have stated in a few emails to different people I know of, is awful (not to mention some of the other things you get up to)- Of course, you are one step away from a care in the community type but that is no excuse.
I wouldn’t usually be so rude to anyone, especially someone I haven’t met but I really don’t see what’s funny about snide, slightly hidden racist remarks- enough is far too much.
I feel sorry for Morrissey having fans like this. The horrid truth is there are racists who are quite happy to claim Morrissey as own.
It’s one thing to miss the England of old, that has been elbowed out by a multi cultural world and to say the country is becoming over crowded (a lot of us, black and white feel this way), it’s quite another to hate and blame people of a different skin culture- it should be noted that in the 80s Morrissey used to speak about his horror that American culture had taken over England).
What gets to me, is it’s journalists with their lies, trying to make a name for themselves that are the true villains and trouble makers not Morrissey, yes Moz is a wind up merchant and yes he is far from politically correct but he isn’t racist.
Because he is an easy target the media world have been prodding away for years, until it’s got to the point where it’s a hoary case of “no smoke with out fire”.
People are so blinded by the years of smoke, that they don’t see it’s the press holding the matches.
This latest case is one of the silliest yet, all Morrissey said was “you can't help but feel the Chinese are a subspecies”, he didn’t say they WERE, he said you can’t help but FEEL they were.
I would say most of us, who care dearly about animals feel the same about people when they see them mistreat animals in horrific ways. If Morrissey would have said the same thing about child abusers no one would said a word (people often say pedophiles are not human). It may seem like I am stretching the point but I for one feel that animal abuse is akin to child abuse.

f***...I have to go and get a jolly ole haircut...I will reply to this torrent later. You are quite the evil little man aren't you.
 
Incidentally....I shant be replying to that rank tosh. I know your kind, used and abused in a former life and now holier than thou in the next. It does actually make one wonder that because you spent such time bashing that crap out on your bedraggled keyboard that you find yourself in some way drawn to me. I don't know and truth be told I don't care anymore. If anyone stands out in any way shape or form a backlash always comes. Alas I am used to dreary c***s like you now. And my trite racism is usually for aesthetic reasons, sad I know, I even laugh at myself.


Also who on earth have I emailed stating I don't like black people? I really am shocked by this, and what I get up to? How do you know what I get up to? Now what I do get up to is milldy on the devious and salacious side but still...I fail to see how you know this? Man I think I may give up on solo now and become just an observer, this is bordering on the ridiculous.

Tatty Bye
 
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Incidentally....I shant be replying to that rank tosh. I know your kind, used and abused in a former life and now holier than thou in the next. It does actually make one wonder that because you spent such time bashing that crap out on your bedraggled keyboard that you find yourself in some way drawn to me. I don't know and truth be told I don't care anymore. If anyone stands out in any way shape or form a backlash always comes. Alas I am used to dreary c***s like you now. And my trite racism is usually for aesthetic reasons, sad I know, I even laugh at myself.


Also who on earth have I emailed stating I don't like black people? I really am shocked by this, and what I get up to? How do you know what I get up to? Now what I do get up to is milldy on the devious and salacious side but still...I fail to see how you know this? Man I think I may give up on solo now and become just an observer, this is bordering on the ridiculous.

Tatty Bye

Oh dear,
she claims she won't reply and then replies.
It always makes me giggle when Morrissey fans try and take for themselves adjectives people use for Morrissey when they aren't anything like Morrissey.
First off, I only used Scarlet as a jumping off point as she happens to be a racist and the debate was about racism.
I would have let this go but I felt she was being disrespectful to another member, not to mention the fact on this thread and on others she has made vaguely racist comments and then tried to duck out- another member was trying to defend her by saying she is a little bit racist (can one be a little bit racist?).
Scarlet, saying you are only racist in an asthetic sense is bad enough but you are not only racist in this sense, so don't lie.
I am also far from drawn to you, which is why I refuse to answer your emails.
I wish you no ill as such, its just people like you make me feel so tired and I really think having people like you spreading the Morrissey word is, harmful to Morrissey

Night
 
Well said, as usual.

This whole debate is absurd. Morrissey is an absurdist who pushes people's buttons.

I think Morrissey has openly condemned the entire human race at several points in his career - he's clearly got it in for the entire species. He loves a relative handful of people on this planet, and the rest could vanish into the ether with nary a tear shed on his part. As someone highly sensitive to the pain and death that humans inflict on the animal kingdom each and every moment, he has cast his judgement.

Perhaps Morrissey should call his next album "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad" and include a cover of this rousing anthem:

Beasts of England, Beasts of Ireland,
Beasts of every land and clime,
Hearken to my joyful tidings
Of the Golden future time.

Soon or late the day is coming,
Tyrant Man shall be o'er thrown,
And the fruitful fields of England
Shall be trod by beasts alone.

Rings shall vanish from our noses,
And the harness from our back,
Bit and spur shall rust forever,
Cruel whips no more shall crack.

Riches more than mind can picture,
Wheat and barley, oats and hay,
Clover, beans and mangel-wurzels
Shall be ours upon that day.

Bright will shine the fields of England,
Purer shall its waters be,
Sweeter yet shall blow its breezes
On the day that sets us free.

For that day we all must labour,
Though we die before it break;
Cows and horses, geese and turkeys,
All must toil for freedom's sake.

Beasts of England, Beasts of Ireland,
Beasts of every land and clime,
Hearken well, and spread my tidings
Of the Golden future time.

Bravo
 
Oh dear,
she claims she won't reply and then replies.
It always makes me giggle when Morrissey fans try and take for themselves adjectives people use for Morrissey when they aren't anything like Morrissey.
First off, I only used Scarlet as a jumping off point as she happens to be a racist and the debate was about racism.
I would have let this go but I felt she was being disrespectful to another member, not to mention the fact on this thread and on others she has made vaguely racist comments and then tried to duck out- another member was trying to defend her by saying she is a little bit racist (can one be a little bit racist?).
Scarlet, saying you are only racist in an asthetic sense is bad enough but you are not only racist in this sense, so don't lie.
I am also far from drawn to you, which is why I refuse to answer your emails.
I wish you no ill as such, its just people like you make me feel so tired and I really think having people like you spreading the Morrissey word is, harmful to Morrissey

Night


Can we f***? I love a nasty man. You seem mildy intelligent too. Very funny.
 
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