Morrissey Central "YOUR VACCINATION:" (October 27, 2021)

YOUR VACCINATION: - MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY - MORRISSEY CENTRAL - YOUR VACCINATION:

MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY on MORRISSEY CENTRAL

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Regards,
FWD.

 

[Deleted member 28251]

How is bloody Ian Brown representative of the left? That’s not a very strong argument. State skepticism might very well be associated with the left historically, but not anymore. Like I said, in the EU Parliament, for example, those opposed to the vaccine and the vaccine passports that are now a requirement for working within the Parliament in Brussels, are MEPs on the (far) right. And I wonder why that is.

You’re getting out of your depth now

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/aug/16/wheresthepoliticsinpop

 

[Gregor Samsa]

You’re getting out of your depth now

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/aug/16/wheresthepoliticsinpop

So Ian made an anti war single back in 2007, and therefore he is one of the best examples of the British left? And I’m the one out of my depth?

 

[Deleted member 28251]

So Ian made an anti war single back in 2007, and therefore he is one of the best examples of the British left? And I’m the one out of my depth?

And you’re being disingenuous now.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

And you’re being disingenuous now.

Huh? How’s that?

 

[Deleted member 28251]

Huh? How’s that?

You’ve not represented the article, and you’re apparently playing dumb about the lyrical content of dozens of songs penned/sung by Ian Brown. And selectively forgetting that the one of the biggest and earliest advocates of Public Enemy (in the UK) was Ian Brown.

I accept you might actually have no knowledge of his very early standing up for gay and trans rights.

Anyway, let me guess, Public Enemy are card carrying right-wing fascists too?

 

[Gregor Samsa]

You’ve not represented the article, and you’re apparently playing dumb about the lyrical content of dozens of songs penned/sung by Ian Brown. And selectively forgetting that the one of the biggest and earliest advocates of Public Enemy (in the UK) was Ian Brown.

I accept you might actually have no knowledge of his very early standing up for gay and trans rights.

Anyway, let me guess, Public Enemy are card carrying right-wing fascists too?

I think you’re being silly. Deliberately silly. Ian Brown is not representative of the entire British left. Especially not today. And no, Public Enemy are obviously not fascist. Quite the contrary. Nor do they have anything to do with this discussion.

If we could move past this silliness, I’d still like to discuss why the far-right is anti-vax. I’m thinking of Trump, Bolsonaro, the previously mentioned MEPs, the Patriot group mentioned by Karen, some of the members of the Sweden Democrats, the neo-fascist demonstrations against vaccin passports in Italy earlier this month, and so on. Liberals seem to be more in favor of the vaccine and vaccine passports than the far-right. It’s weird. It shouldn’t be political at all.

 

[Deleted member 28251]

I think you’re being silly. Deliberately silly. Ian Brown is not representative of the entire British left. Especially not today. And no, Public Enemy are obviously not fascist. Quite the contrary. Nor do they have anything to do with this discussion.

If we could move past this silliness, I’d still like to discuss why the far-right is anti-vax. I’m thinking of Trump, Bolsonaro, the previously mentioned MEPs, the Patriot group mentioned by Karen, some of the members of the Sweden Democrats, the neo-fascist demonstrations against vaccin passports in Italy earlier this month, and so on. Liberals seem to be more in favor of the vaccine and vaccine passports than the far-right. It’s weird. It shouldn’t be political at all.

Yes. I was being silly: fair point. But with some effect I hope.

I think going back to the issue of science/state scepticism—and you’re association of it with right-wing politics—it needs some revision or qualification.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Yes. I was being silly: fair point. But with some effect I hope.

I think going back to the issue of science/state scepticism—and you’re association of it with right-wing politics—it needs some revision or qualification.

But you’re not denying that there is a widespread skepticism towards the vaccination and vaccine related mandates among the far-right in Europe and elsewhere?

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

A few questions:
How come so many people are against the vaccine, when there is an unprecedented pandemic killing millions of people all around the world?

It quickly became politicized.

We need to question why people regardless of their politics, have a suspicion, or are out right against authority. And I find that may come down to personal experiences that have shaped their distrust of authority/government telling them what to or not to do.


For me as an example, If you are infirm, then I believe you should get the vaccine, but that is still their choice, not mine or ours to impose on them.
I wouldn’t stop anyone from getting the vaccine if that is their choice, and in turn I would expect they respect the rights of those that have chosen not to get the vaccine. The same way a woman shouldn’t be stopped from choosing to get an abortion, nor should she be punished afterward for the choice she has made.

As far as how much of a difference or impact the vaccinations have made, you may want to discuss that
with @bhops and @spent both of whom have a better grasp on statistics and such.


No one knows if this experimental vaccine will have negative repercussions on the body in years to come, we are the trial. And the government is forcing a vaccine on people, yet it will not take responsibility for the damage it is already doing, nor will the vaccine companies and government be held responsible if there are future cases of negative impact on those that received the vaccine.


Two pro-vax individuals sharing information ....

 

[Gregor Samsa]

It quickly became politicized.

We need to question why people regardless of their politics, have a suspicion, or are out right against authority. And I find that may come down to personal experiences that have shaped their distrust of authority/government telling them what to or not to do.


For me as an example, If you are infirm, then I believe you should get the vaccine, but that is still their choice, not mine or ours to impose on them.
I wouldn’t stop anyone from getting the vaccine if that is their choice, and in turn I would expect they respect the rights of those that have chosen not to get the vaccine. The same way a woman shouldn’t be stopped from choosing to get an abortion, nor should she be punished afterward for the choice she has made.

As far as how much of a difference or impact the vaccination have made, you may want to discuss that
with @bhops and @spent both of whom have a better grasp on statistics and such.


No one knows if this experimental vaccine will have negative repercussions on the body in years to come, we are the trial. And the government is forcing a vaccine on people, yet it will not take responsibility for the damage it is already doing, nor will the vaccine companies and government be held responsible if there are future cases of negative impact on those that received the vaccine.


Two pro-vax individuals sharing information ....

If that really is the case, then why does it seem that most of these people are right-leaning?

 

[Deleted member 28251]

But you’re not denying that there is a widespread skepticism towards the vaccination and vaccine related mandates among the far-right in Europe and elsewhere?

No, I’m not. But I’m assuring you it’s not a right-wing issue. It crosses political divides, though (much as with other trans-political issues) each side is trying to own it for some advantage.

Equally, media representation of resistance to the vaccine occurs with wider discourses and ambitions in view: some resist and it’s called ‘hesitancy’ others do it and it’s all-out insurgency.

As I’ve hinted, hardcore resistance in the UK is actually numerically strongest in left leaning inner city areas. And so whilst the right might want to own this resistance, and various media forums might be happy to gift it to them, it’s untrue at the level of statistics (and my own anecdotal experience) to say it’s a right-wing problem—or accolade.

There’s some deep seated resistance on the left and on the right.

My personal voting record is for Labour and The Green Party. I’m a member of the Labour Party through my Union membership. I’m against mandatory vaccination. I don’t wear a mask (never have unless forced to—which I have been). I’m also against Covid passports. I’m vaccinated myself because I often come into contact with vulnerable people. But I think personal choice is sacrosanct.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

If that really is the case, then why does it seem that most of these people are right-leaning?

it’s news, it’s dumbed down, it’s the media and government projecting a ‘us against them’ mentality. And it’s not that simple.

So I don’t see it that way, nor do I feel that it’s very important when people on both sides are being punished for their choice not to get the vaccine and those that have already been damaged by getting the vaccine are not being recognized, nor is the government taking responsibility to help them.

 

[karenina]

If that really is the case, then why does it seem that most of these people are right-leaning?

From my extremely limited personal observations, most of the people publicly protesting against lock-downs and mandatory vax are working class and right / apolitical. College graduates are more likely to be left wing, and academic jobs are much easier to transition to online. Thus, it's easy for college graduate anti-vaxers (of which I know a few) to keep there heads down and work online. Which the working class, who are more likely to be conservative, cannot do.

 

[caramel sea salt]

I think you’re being silly. Deliberately silly. Ian Brown is not representative of the entire British left. Especially not today. And no, Public Enemy are obviously not fascist. Quite the contrary. Nor do they have anything to do with this discussion.

If we could move past this silliness, I’d still like to discuss why the far-right is anti-vax. I’m thinking of Trump, Bolsonaro, the previously mentioned MEPs, the Patriot group mentioned by Karen, some of the members of the Sweden Democrats, the neo-fascist demonstrations against vaccin passports in Italy earlier this month, and so on. Liberals seem to be more in favor of the vaccine and vaccine passports than the far-right. It’s weird. It shouldn’t be political at all.

Sweden is a very bad example to bring up to support your argument. In Sweden, the left wing government has firmly stood agains lockdowns, mask mandates, domestic vaccine passports and any kind of coercion. It's the Conservatives and the far-right Sweden Democrats that have consistently pushed for more and more stringent measures (to score cheap political points).

Might also be worth noting that Sweden has one of the highest covid vaccination rates in Europe, and it's all been achieved through persuasion rather than coercion.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

From my extremely limited personal observations, most of the people publicly protesting against lock-downs and mandatory vax are working class and right / apolitical. College graduates are more likely to be left wing, and academic jobs are much easier to transition to online. Thus, it's easy for college graduate anti-vaxers (of which I know a few) to keep there heads down and work online. Which the working class, who are more likely to be conservative, cannot do.

This is the best and most sensible explanation I’ve been given yet. Thank you!

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Sweden is a very bad example to bring up to support your argument. In Sweden, the left wing government has firmly stood agains lockdowns, mask mandates, domestic vaccine passports and any kind of coercion. It's the Conservatives and the far-right Sweden Democrats that have consistently pushed for more and more stringent measures (to score cheap political points).

Might also be worth noting that Sweden has one of the highest covid vaccination rates in Europe, and it's all been achieved through persuasion rather than coercion.

Well, all I said in regards to Sweden was that out of the few members of the Swedish Parliament that haven’t been vaccinated are members of the Sweden Democrats. But thanks anyway!

 

[Trans]

This is the best and most sensible explanation I’ve been given yet. Thank you!

This is actually untrue. Yes there is a large part of that demographic but there were plenty of people who stormed the capital for example who were wealthy and plenty of billionaires are funding and directing the anti vax movement. The idea that the far right is some working class movement is wrong. Richard Spencer who coined the term alt right has several degrees from good universities. Was getting his phd from duke before he left for a political career. He’s also a neo nazi currently on trial for the untie the right violence and leader of the neo nazi party. Steve bannon is super wealthy. What happened was that a lot of disparate far right groups started to feel threatened in a lot of ways due to demographics of all sorts from race to declining interest in religion etc and they all joined under one big tent of resentment. Policy isnt important, being cruel sowing disorder against people they hate is the point. Freedom means not having to do what the government say you have to do, saving America is forcing others to do what you say, big government is bad and regulations are conspiracy’s, government needs to take control of local school districts to protect freedom. It’s all just self serving resentment and most of America is so uninformed about how anything works, the Atlantic just ran an article about the dumbing down of America, that they’ll believe anything they want to. Even then facts don’t matter. Remember when trump said people should be able to use the bathroom they want to or when signed huge tax breaks for the wealthy. Nobody that doesn’t benefit from those policy’s really understands them or cares as long as he’s being as cruel as possible to the people they hate be they the elites people of color gay people non Christians etc. and in the midst of all this are politicians desperately trying to hold on to power at any cost

 

[Deleted member 29417]

The anti-vaxx movement already existed so it was easy enough to infiltrate.

& the Gulf War Syndrome scandal probably has a lot to do with it - it's part of military lore & military types lean to the right.

Illegal vaccine link to Gulf war syndrome

The illness known as Gulf war syndrome looks likely to have been caused by an illegal vaccine "booster" given by the Ministry of Defence to protect soldiers against biological weapons, according to the results of a new series of tests.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gregor Samsa]

This is actually untrue. Yes there is a large part of that demographic but there were plenty of people who stormed the capital for example who were wealthy and plenty of billionaires are funding and directing the anti vax movement. The idea that the far right is some working class movement is wrong. Richard Spencer who coined the term alt right has several degrees from good universities. Was getting his phd from duke before he left for a political career. He’s also a neo nazi currently on trial for the untie the right violence and leader of the neo nazi party. Steve bannon is super wealthy. What happened was that a lot of disparate far right groups started to feel threatened in a lot of ways due to demographics of all sorts from race to declining interest in religion etc and they all joined under one big tent of resentment. Policy isnt important, being cruel sowing disorder against people they hate is the point. Freedom means not having to do what the government say you have to do, saving America is forcing others to do what you say, big government is bad and regulations are conspiracy’s, government needs to take control of local school districts to protect freedom. It’s all just self serving resentment and most of America is so uninformed about how anything works, the Atlantic just ran an article about the dumbing down of America, that they’ll believe anything they want to. Even then facts don’t matter. Remember when trump said people should be able to use the bathroom they want to or when signed huge tax breaks for the wealthy. Nobody that doesn’t benefit from those policy’s really understands them or cares as long as he’s being as cruel as possible to the people they hate be they the elites people of color gay people non Christians etc. and in the midst of all this are politicians desperately trying to hold on to power at any cost

I think Karenina was speaking in general terms, and in general terms she (?) was correct, I think.

 

[karenina]

This is actually untrue. Yes there is a large part of that demographic but there were plenty of people who stormed the capital for example who were wealthy and plenty of billionaires are funding and directing the anti vax movement. The idea that the far right is some working class movement is wrong. Richard Spencer who coined the term alt right has several degrees from good universities. Was getting his phd from duke before he left for a political career. He’s also a neo nazi currently on trial for the untie the right violence and leader of the neo nazi party. Steve bannon is super wealthy. What happened was that a lot of disparate far right groups started to feel threatened in a lot of ways due to demographics of all sorts from race to declining interest in religion etc and they all joined under one big tent of resentment. Policy isnt important, being cruel sowing disorder against people they hate is the point. Freedom means not having to do what the government say you have to do, saving America is forcing others to do what you say, big government is bad and regulations are conspiracy’s, government needs to take control of local school districts to protect freedom. It’s all just self serving resentment and most of America is so uninformed about how anything works, the Atlantic just ran an article about the dumbing down of America, that they’ll believe anything they want to. Even then facts don’t matter. Remember when trump said people should be able to use the bathroom they want to or when signed huge tax breaks for the wealthy. Nobody that doesn’t benefit from those policy’s really understands them or cares as long as he’s being as cruel as possible to the people they hate be they the elites people of color gay people non Christians etc. and in the midst of all this are politicians desperately trying to hold on to power at any cost

Sure. I was making a generalization based on my personal observations and experiences. Of course there are highly educated right-wingers, and working class left-wingers, but most working class people do skew conservative.

I think it's disingenuous and untrue to paint anyone anti-vax as far right. The only anti-vax people I personally know are extreme-vegan hispter types, or I dont know them well enough to tell, but not obviously right-wing. (Potentially could be influenced by right-wing family) Though maybe its a USA thing.
I'm not from the USA, and I have little interest or knowledge of it other than the douglas fir.

I might theorise that in the USA, which has a centre-left president, there is an additional incentive for the right-wing to oppose the governments sanctions.
In countries such as mine, with a conservative government, there could be a similar incentive for the left-wing to oppose the sanctions.

It's almost exclusively tradespeople protesting in my country - because they have to be vaccinated, or lose there jobs - because they couldn't work during lock-downs - Many of these people seem to skew conservative, but I don't think many of them have some large right-wing agenda. They simply want to work, and don't like being told they must be vaccinated in order to work. I don't personally know these people, so I couldn't tell you for certain. All the (admitedly few, and older than the average protester) tradespeople I know regard the protesters as idiots, despite being conservative themselves.

Wheras the left-wing hipster types I know that I refered to above have coasted through the whole thing because they transitioned easily into online work, and currently still are. I'm curious to see what happens when / if these people are asked to go back to the office, and if they will have to prove vaccination status.

I can't speak for the USA. But America is not the world. (and the USA is not America)