Moz and the Union Jack thing.....

S

Spinster

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This topic is related to the racism debate currently going on below, but is an entirely new question:

Today i came upon this particular thought......why is touting a union jack considered a racist thing to do? The union jack is the flag of England, so if someone were to wave around an American flag onstage in America, would that person be considered a racist? Probably not. I don't really understand why, when Morrissey displayed a union jack onstage at one of his UK shows, he was severely critisized as flirting with racism. Isn't the union jack the national flag? How is that racist, and why is it different from waving a flag from any other country, within that person's own country?

Discuss.
 
> I think it had more to do with nationalism--something that the British look down upon. I went to England this summer, and I rarely saw a flag flying anywhere. In the United States, every gas station, car dealership, and government building has one. Hmmmmmm. I have had much trouble wrestling with the whole moz and race issue. I think he loves english culture, and he knows that the old English way of life is dying(Glamorus Glue). He hates all of the american influences(McDonalds)and Indian influences upon his country--this does not mean he is a racists, however. He seems to love Mexican and Spanish culture. Moreover, he has had at least one non-white musician in his band(kill uncle sessions). I have also heard that he is attracted to the whole skinhead mentality; he seems to be attracted to their simpleminded view on life and their undying love and devotion to each other. He literally wants to be part of the ordinary boys. When he hired Boz, Alian, Spencer, and Gary, he was looking for a band of thugs--some people to be brothers with. In some ways, he seems to be attracted to violence. The boxing fetish and attraction to criminals(LOTFINP)seems to be evidence to the latter. I have heard he loves to read about serial murderers, and he identifies the abberant sexuality and violent tendencies of Pinky(Now My Heart is Full) in "Brighton Rock." He descries the National Front when he calls it a disco. To him, a disco represents superficial values that don't represent his sexual ambiguous and recluse lifestyle(Panic). "Asian Rut" points out the abomination of racial violence. He calls it "wrong," and he desires to live in a more civilized environment.
 
If you're talking about the Finsbury Park show in particular -- I think it was the *combination* of a) swinging around the Union Jack
b) a looming backdrop of two skinhead girls c) singing "National Front Disco"

Moz isn't racist, but he was misguided in thinking that people would look deeper than superficial imagery and not brand him one.

jason
xoxox
 
> Today i came upon this particular thought......why is touting a
> union jack considered a racist thing to do
---------
It has to do with the stupid and puritanical Leftism of the British music press at the time. Three years later, everyone would be draping themselves in the Union Jack with nary a disapproving peep from anyone.

The whole "Moz is a Nazi" debacle was either the product of the press' complete inability to interpret songs and symbols or a deliberate smear campaign.
 
That's right. We should never forget that it was the NME that started it all in an attempt (one of many- they do it all the time with different artists) to undervalue Mozzer's solo career. The sad thing is they managed to brand him as racist- but then again those who fell for it were not good enough to be called Moz fans anyway.

> ---------
> It has to do with the stupid and puritanical Leftism of the
> British music press at the time. Three years later, everyone
> would be draping themselves in the Union Jack with nary a
> disapproving peep from anyone.

> The whole "Moz is a Nazi" debacle was either the
> product of the press' complete inability to interpret songs and
> symbols or a deliberate smear campaign.
 
Re: Finsbury Park

I was there at Finsbury Park when 'Our Boy' wrapped himself in the Union Flag (for the pedants, yes it's the Union Flag), not Jack, and I was very upset about the reception he got. But I've reconciled it in my own mind.

You have to understand that he appeared at tea time second on the bill to Madness at a gig called 'Madstock'. So there I was in a drunken crowd impatient to see Madness. People had become tired of waiting around and they wanted the Nutty Boys to get on with it.

Imagine then, you're a drunk, thick, Cock-er-ny stood in a field and you want to see the boys who sing nostalgic songs about your teenage years and how they were GOOD.

Up pops the apparently homo-sexual Morrissey, who they find attractive, but they've been told is racist, singing 'London is Dead, London is Dead'. You don't like it. You have 'London Pride' and you're afraid that he may be making you have homo-sexual thoughts. You can't say this. So you agree he's racist. The National Front have been mentioned and the NF wear that flag. It all appears to add up for a simpleton. Flag=Racist=Morrissey. You boo him off as best you are able, so that maybe, just maybe the funny one they call Suggs will appear a littlke earlier than expected.

I stand to be corrected, but the original skinheads, I thought, were into SKA and later reggae - just like those in the Two-Tone culture in the late 70's/ early 80's [Madness]. Madness had suedehead haircuts - presuambly losing all your hair is a bit far to go for progression of your career. morrissey likes the early Ska stuff. He likes what the early skinheads liked. So do I. I won't have anything to do with racist filth and I won't have my culture hi-jacked by racists.

Enough. I'm off to play my Trojan records....
 
Re: Finsbury Park

Early skinhead bands like the Angelic Upstarts (Morrissey's fave) were extremely left-wing and anti-fascist. Some racists were attracted to the bands because of, I suppose, their extremist, violent image. But the Upstarts and other bands like them were always very clear about what they stood for.

> I stand to be corrected, but the original skinheads, I thought,
> were into SKA and later reggae - just like those in the Two-Tone
> culture in the late 70's/ early 80's [Madness]. Madness had
> suedehead haircuts - presuambly losing all your hair is a bit
> far to go for progression of your career. morrissey likes the
> early Ska stuff. He likes what the early skinheads liked. So do
> I. I won't have anything to do with racist filth and I won't
> have my culture hi-jacked by racists.

> Enough. I'm off to play my Trojan records....
 
> ---------
> It has to do with the stupid and puritanical Leftism of the
> British music press at the time. Three years later, everyone
> would be draping themselves in the Union Jack with nary a
> disapproving peep from anyone.

> The whole "Moz is a Nazi" debacle was either the
> product of the press' complete inability to interpret songs and
> symbols or a deliberate smear campaign.

I think what happens is a bandwagon/pack journalism effect. One person writes a disparaging article...and the the rest echo it without giving it any critical thought themselves.
 
Don't British fascists have a habit of flaunting the flag? It's a much stronger political statement in Britain that it is in the United States.

I've sometimes wondered if this racism thing is a result of Morrissey being so PERVERSE. He has a bit of a persecution complex, you know. Loyal fans say he was trying to make a statement ABOUT racism or he was exploring the imagery of yet another subculture, which makes sense to me. Looking at another angle of 'Britishness'. But when people misinterpreted it (which is understandable) perhaps Morrissey took it personally. He figured people were wilfully misinterpreting what he was doing and trying to sabotage his career. Because he figures he's surrounded by people who hate him and envy him. So he refused to explain himself out of SPITE towards these supposed enemies. The rationale would be something like, 'People are always going to attack me and misinterpret the things I do and try to destroy me, but I'll do what I want and they can screw themselves. I'm not going to make concessions or explanations for people who refuse to understand. They'll never understand anyway.' That would be in keeping with Morrissey's hypersensitivity. He didn't think of his fans, though.

> This topic is related to the racism debate currently going on
> below, but is an entirely new question:

> Today i came upon this particular thought......why is touting a
> union jack considered a racist thing to do? The union jack is
> the flag of England, so if someone were to wave around an
> American flag onstage in America, would that person be
> considered a racist? Probably not. I don't really understand
> why, when Morrissey displayed a union jack onstage at one of his
> UK shows, he was severely critisized as flirting with racism.
> Isn't the union jack the national flag? How is that racist, and
> why is it different from waving a flag from any other country,
> within that person's own country?

> Discuss.
 
Moz's "Englishness" is a reaction against his Irishness

> Don't British fascists have a habit of flaunting the flag? It's
> a much stronger political statement in Britain that it is in the
> United States.

In America, the Stars nad Stripes is to be found everywhere. Here in the UK, there is still to be to found a great deal of embarassment surrounding the use of the Union jack.

> I've sometimes wondered if this racism thing is a result of
> Morrissey being so PERVERSE. He has a bit of a persecution
> complex, you know. Loyal fans say he was trying to make a
> statement ABOUT racism or he was exploring the imagery of yet
> another subculture, which makes sense to me. Looking at another
> angle of 'Britishness'. But when people misinterpreted it (which
> is understandable) perhaps Morrissey took it personally. He
> figured people were wilfully misinterpreting what he was doing
> and trying to sabotage his career. Because he figures he's
> surrounded by people who hate him and envy him. So he refused to
> explain himself out of SPITE towards these supposed enemies. The
> rationale would be something like, 'People are always going to
> attack me and misinterpret the things I do and try to destroy
> me, but I'll do what I want and they can screw themselves. I'm
> not going to make concessions or explanations for people who
> refuse to understand. They'll never understand anyway.' That
> would be in keeping with Morrissey's hypersensitivity. He didn't
> think of his fans, though.

You touch on a good point there. I feel that moz's sensitivity may be due to speculation surrounding not only his sexuality (over-discussed, if I may say so), but perhaps his own ethnicity. Remember Moz's parents are immingrants from Ireland. It's been well documented that Irish people endured bigotry in the UK round about the same time that Afro-Caribbeans, Asians and other ethnic minorities entered the UK en masse back in the 1950's (Johnny Marr recalled the anti-Irish sentiments he encountered as a kid in Manchester in the early 70's at the height of the IRA mainland terror campaigns in a fairly recent issue of 'Uncut' magazine), so fearful of being attacked for being the son of immigrants, he may well have felt compelled to take on board the imagery/attitudes of those who would set up upon him in order to protect himself.

The tragedy is, that in doing so, he's made it very difficult (if not impossible) for non-white Moz-heads/indie fans to admit to liking his music without uncomfortable/painful questions being asked about their own cultural identity and their place within the indie scene. I used to go to a college in Tottenham years ago where I'd wear my 'Viva Hate' t-shirt. Around the time of the skinhead controversy, it would very difficult indeed for me to have done so.

The Irish community within the UK holds on to its identity in much the same way most of us would a winning lottery ticket (at the catholic primary school I attended as a child, there was the singing of traditional Irish songs and Irish dancing on St. Patrick's Day, plus the fact that as we came through the school gates wearing our sunday best instead of our school uniforms, the nuns there would pin either some shamrock or a green ribbon with a harp onto our clothes!), so to see Morrissey toying with certain aspects of Englishness while supressing his Irishness is really rather puzzling to me. Anyone care to add to that?


Auditions to become the policeman for 'Village People'
squaremile-cops.JPG
 
Moz's "Englishness" is a reaction against his Irishness

> Don't British fascists have a habit of flaunting the flag? It's
> a much stronger political statement in Britain that it is in the
> United States.

In America, the Stars and Stripes is to be found everywhere. Here in the UK, there is still to be to found a great deal of embarassment surrounding the use of the Union Jack (due in no small part to its historical use in the past, and its hijacking by the far-right and the Tory party).

> I've sometimes wondered if this racism thing is a result of
> Morrissey being so PERVERSE. He has a bit of a persecution
> complex, you know. Loyal fans say he was trying to make a
> statement ABOUT racism or he was exploring the imagery of yet
> another subculture, which makes sense to me. Looking at another
> angle of 'Britishness'. But when people misinterpreted it (which
> is understandable) perhaps Morrissey took it personally. He
> figured people were wilfully misinterpreting what he was doing
> and trying to sabotage his career. Because he figures he's
> surrounded by people who hate him and envy him. So he refused to
> explain himself out of SPITE towards these supposed enemies. The
> rationale would be something like, 'People are always going to
> attack me and misinterpret the things I do and try to destroy
> me, but I'll do what I want and they can screw themselves. I'm
> not going to make concessions or explanations for people who
> refuse to understand. They'll never understand anyway.' That
> would be in keeping with Morrissey's hypersensitivity. He didn't
> think of his fans, though.

You touch on a good point there. I feel that moz's sensitivity may be due to speculation surrounding not only his sexuality (over-discussed, if I may say so), but perhaps his own ethnicity. Remember Moz's parents are immingrants from Ireland. It's been well documented that Irish people endured bigotry in the UK round about the same time that Afro-Caribbeans, Asians and other ethnic minorities entered the UK en masse back in the 1950's (Johnny Marr recalled the anti-Irish sentiments he encountered as a kid in Manchester in the early 70's at the height of the IRA mainland terror campaigns in a fairly recent issue of 'Uncut' magazine), so fearful of being attacked for being the son of immigrants, he may well have felt compelled to take on board the imagery/attitudes of those who would set up upon him in order to protect himself.

The tragedy is, that in doing so, he's made it very difficult (if not impossible) for non-white Moz-heads/indie fans to admit to liking his music without uncomfortable/painful questions being asked about their own cultural identity and their place within the indie scene. I used to go to a college in Tottenham years ago where I'd wear my 'Viva Hate' t-shirt. Around the time of the skinhead controversy, it would very difficult indeed for me to have done so.

The Irish community within the UK holds on to its identity in much the same way most of us would a winning lottery ticket (at the catholic primary school I attended as a child, there was the singing of traditional Irish songs and Irish dancing on St. Patrick's Day, plus the fact that as we came through the school gates wearing our sunday best instead of our school uniforms, the nuns there would pin either some shamrock or a green ribbon with a harp onto our clothes!), so to see Morrissey toying with certain aspects of Englishness while supressing his Irishness is really rather puzzling to me. Anyone care to add to that?


Auditions to become the policeman for 'Village People'
squaremile-cops.JPG
 
Hmmm... let's not get too overcomplicated. The reason he did it was very simple; it is a beautiful flag and he's very proud of what it stands (stood) for.
 
> I think what happens is a bandwagon/pack journalism effect. One
> person writes a disparaging article...and the the rest echo it
> without giving it any critical thought themselves.
--------
Very true. But I'm still surprised by the brute stupidity of it all. The idea that because a song contains the words "England for the English" the singer is promoting that viewpoint? It takes either stupidity or malicious intent to come to that conclusion.
 
> I've sometimes wondered if this racism thing is a result of
> Morrissey being so PERVERSE.
------------
This is very true. Moz was never going to relent and apologize and concede defeat to the NME, no matter what the cost.

But when people misinterpreted it (which is understandable) perhaps Morrissey took it personally. He figured people were wilfully misinterpreting what he was doing and trying to sabotage his career.
-------
I don't see how he could have felt otherwise. The "controversial" song -Bengali, Asian Rut, We'll Let You Know, NF Disco- were so unambiguous that their continued misinterpretation is really mind-boggling.
 
Re: Moz's "Englishness" is a reaction against his Irishness

This is true, and certainly not unique to Moz. The tenuous status of an immigrant or the son of an immigrant can lead to total immersion in the new culture. A weird example of this sort of thing is the post war Japan's fascination with all things American after being rebuilt in our image.
 
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