Distorted world view? Why is it so attractive?

[realitybites]

There is proof that his father was aggressive in the autobiography and there is the mention in the Rogan biog (presumably from Rogan's own interviews with schoolpals) of Moz going very quiet for awhile but that's all we have and what else can we expect to find out about something that happened to a child in the 1960s.

It will not be detailed in the autobiography for the simple reason that Morrissey himself can't remember it. The whole point of the kind of illness we (well some of us) are talking about here is it based on repression, on cutting something out of the memory that it's easier to forget but suffering a kind of emotional being at sea as a result, a partial shutdown.

Bullshit. Quit psychoanalyzing Morrissey. Are you a licensed analyst? If not, shut it. If you are, then you are acting unethically... spouting assertions on a fan forum without ever meeting the man in person.

If what's described in the book amounts to abuse, then we have ALL been abused. Give me a break.

 

[Neil Gee]

Bullshit. Quit psychoanalyzing Morrissey. Are you a licensed analyst? If not, shut it. If you are, then you are acting unethically... spouting assertions on a fan forum without ever meeting the man in person.

If what's described in the book amounts to abuse, then we have ALL been abused. Give me a break.

and I thought I was being quite polite to you, but to be honest I expected a lot more abuse, I've done well to get to page 3 without any...what would it matter if I was a "licensed analyst" since as you already say M is not being seen in person so no analysis should be offered? But M did see a shrink voluntarily as he admits in the biog and it seems to have been an unsatisfactory affair. I'm surprised you haven't bought that up.

 

[realitybites]

and I thought I was being quite polite to you, but to be honest I expected a lot more abuse, I've done well to get to page 3 without any...what would it matter if I was a "licensed analyst" since as you already say M is not being seen in person so no analysis should be offered? But M did see a shrink voluntarily as he admits in the biog and it seems to have been an unsatisfactory affair. I'm surprised you haven't bought that up.

I don't need you to act polite. But thinking rationally would be nice. I already explained why being a licensed analyst is relevant--you are either making uneducated assertions or unethical ones. Nothing wrong with wondering if Moz has some personality flaws or even disorders. But you have gone from asking the question to having an answer without any proof/evidence to backup your theory. Guess how many abused people are free of neuroses? Guess how many neurotic people have never been abused? Your correlation is weak and unscientifically sound.


I think you are projecting your own victim scripts and neuroses upon Moz.

PS--That Moz saw a therapist, does not mean that you get to decide what for.

 

[Playcat2000]

I would never join a club that would ask me to be a member. Morrissey is in a vicious circle, he doesn't want people to like him so he acts like an ass, he gets lonely, reaches for attention, gets scared, acts like an ass...

I always thought it was part of his charm.

 

[Anonymous]

There is proof that his father was aggressive in the autobiography and there is the mention in the Rogan biog (presumably from Rogan's own interviews with schoolpals) of Moz going very quiet for awhile but that's all we have and what else can we expect to find out about something that happened to a child in the 1960s.

It will not be detailed in the autobiography for the simple reason that Morrissey himself can't remember it. The whole point of the kind of illness we (well some of us) are talking about here is it based on repression, on cutting something out of the memory that it's easier to forget but suffering a kind of emotional being at sea as a result, a partial shutdown.

just because it is written doesn't make it proof.

 

[Neil Gee]

I don't need you to act polite. But thinking rationally would be nice. I already explained why being an licensed analyst is relevant--you are either making uneducated assertions or unethical ones. Nothing wrong with wondering if Moz has some personality flaws or even disorders. But you have gone from asking the question to having an answer without any proof/evidence to backup your theory. Guess how many abused people are free of neuroses? Guess how many neurotic people have never been abused? Your correlation is weak and unscientifically sound.


I think you are projecting your own victim scripts and neuroses upon Moz.

PS--That Moz saw a therapist, does not mean that you get to decide what for.

I'll try and put this as rationally as I can then, first of all you are right it is all guesswork. There is no proof there are only hints, it is what you called "armchair speculation", I have experience that makes me incline to a certain view without boring you with my own qualifications (which would just make you more dismissive of me). However this is not a Scientific forum it is about our point of views of a singer who most people agree is in some way unique and are we not entitled to speculate as to why without being told to shut up. You're right I don't get to decide what he went into therapy for but the way he wrote about it makes you wonder if he knew either!

I am interested to know what you think makes Morrissey so special? Do you think he's above criticism/analysis? Did you read that book that somebody wrote based entirely on Morrissey's lyrics??

PS I don't "act polite" for any reason it's just the way I f***ing am, right

 

[realitybites]

I'll try and put this as rationally as I can then, first of all you are right it is all guesswork. There is no proof there are only hints, it is what you called "armchair speculation", I have experience that makes me incline to a certain view without boring you with my own qualifications (which would just make you more dismissive of me).

What qualifications? You can state them. Dismissive? Why? Did your psychic tell you Moz has repressed memories? That is about as bad as it can get. So do tell. Tell us why you are qualified to assert that Moz has repressed memories. And that they are due to being abused by his father and schoolmasters. And this repression led to his emotional shutdown. And this shutdown explains why he kicked out a webmaster from his gig and his apparent misanthropy and narcissism.

However this is not a Scientific forum it is about our point of views of a singer who most people agree is in some way unique and are we not entitled to speculate as to why without being told to shut up. You're right I don't get to decide what he went into therapy for but the way he wrote about it makes you wonder if he knew either!

I am interested to know what you think makes Morrissey so special? Do you think he's above criticism/analysis? Did you read that book that somebody wrote based entirely on Morrissey's lyrics??

PS I don't "act polite" for any reason it's just the way I f***ing am, right

Morrissey is not above criticism or analysis. Nobody is. But we have experts to judge these things. Music critics, historians, and other musicians are surely more capable of critiquing the music and lyrics more carefully than a casual listener. Just as the mental health PROFESSIONALS are more capable of diagnosing the man's character and personality.

Not that we cannot all have opinions. We can and do. And you are welcome to yours. But don't assume that we reject your theories because we are a bunch of sycophants who worship Morrissey and think he can do no wrong. This is not the case for most of us here--myself included.

But your assumptions are based on junk science and speculation. Is there even such a thing as a repressed memory?

I ask you, can a person who is emotionally shutdown write such beautiful, emotive lyrics? I think not.

Maybe Morrissey is a bit narcissistic. I'll give you that. But I DON'T think it has anything to do with being abused. Like I said, we have all been rejected by one or more of our parents, at one time or another. And many of us have had to fend off unwanted sexual advances by an adult when we were children. This is pretty run of the mill stuff.

Oh, but you claim he has repressed the real abuse... that is why it is NOT in the book. He isn't even consciously aware that he has been victimized. And yet, he has no problem remembering all the abuses he has suffered at the hands of others now that he is an adult? Come on! This is your projection. Not reality.

What were your credentials again? You were abused? Have repressed memories yourself? Had to go through years of therapy to overcome being emotionally shut down? And your experience thus make you qualified to diagnose others? No, it doesn't.

 

[Neil Gee]

What qualifications? You can state them. Dismissive? Why? Did your psychic tell you Moz has repressed memories? That is about as bad as it can get. So do tell. Tell us why you are qualified to assert that Moz has repressed memories. And that they are due to being abused by his father and schoolmasters. And this repression led to his emotional shutdown. And this shutdown explains why he kicked out a webmaster from his gig and his apparent misanthropy and narcissism.



Morrissey is not above criticism or analysis. Nobody is. But we have experts to judge these things. Music critics, historians, and other musicians are surely more capable of critiquing the music and lyrics more carefully than a casual listener. Just as the mental health PROFESSIONALS are more capable of diagnosing the man's character and personality.

Not that we cannot all have opinions. We can and do. And you are welcome to yours. But don't assume that we reject your theories because we are a bunch of sycophants who worship Morrissey and think he can do no wrong. This is not the case for most of us here--myself included.

But your assumptions are based on junk science and speculation. Is there even such a thing as a repressed memory?

I ask you, can a person who is emotionally shutdown write such beautiful, emotive lyrics? I think not.

Maybe Morrissey is a bit narcissistic. I'll give you that. But I DON'T think it has anything to do with being abused. Like I said, we have all been rejected by one or more of our parents, at one time or another. And many of us have had to fend off unwanted sexual advances by an adult when we were children. This is pretty run of the mill stuff.

Oh, but you claim he has repressed the real abuse... that is why it is NOT in the book. He isn't even consciously aware that he has been victimized. And yet, he has no problem remembering all the abuses he has suffered at the hands of others now that he is an adult? Come on! This is your projection. Not reality.

What were your credentials again? You were abused? Have repressed memories yourself? Had to go through years of therapy to overcome being emotionally shut down? And your experience thus make you qualified to diagnose others? No, it doesn't.

This has really annoyed me, and I don't get annoyed easily. All you've been worried about from the beginning is am a qualified psychiatrist or not! You make that clear by writing PROFESSIONALS in capital letters (sorry, I might have over-stated that) Why would that bother you so much? You've never been interested in a genuine discussion you just want to find out about my exact "qualifications". Isn't that right. That's all you've ever been bothered about. Frankly I'm not going to tell you how I suspect what I do suspect as you will only ridicule whatever as I say as has been you're intention all along.

Repression of terrible memories is real, they knew that as far back as Freud, so what century are you living in? x

 

[realitybites]

This has really annoyed me, and I don't get annoyed easily. All you've been worried about from the beginning is am a qualified psychiatrist or not! You make that clear by writing PROFESSIONALS in capital letters (sorry, I might have over-stated that) Why would that bother you so much? You've never been interested in a genuine discussion you just want to find out about my exact "qualifications". Isn't that right. That's all you've ever been bothered about. Frankly I'm not going to tell you how I suspect what I do suspect as you will only ridicule whatever as I say as has been you're intention all along.

You said you were qualified but don't want to tell me how or in what way because I would be dismissive? And that I would ridicule you? Why would I do that? Why don't you give me the benefit of the doubt? I have no agenda or intention. I just want to know where this insight of yours is coming from? Is it subjective or objective?

Repression of terrible memories is real, they knew that as far back as Freud, so what century are you living in? x

"The existence of repressed memories is a controversial topic in psychology; some studies have concluded that it can occur in victims of trauma while others dispute it. According to some psychologists, repressed memories can be recovered through therapy. Other psychologists argue that this is in fact rather a process through which false memories are created by blending actual memories and outside influences. Furthermore, some psychologists believe that repressed memories are a cultural symptom because there is no written proof of their existence before the nineteenth century."


PS - I only name drop Freud when being facetious.

 

[Anonymous]

You said you were qualified but don't want to tell me how or in what way because I would be dismissive? And that I would ridicule you? Why would I do that? Why don't you give me the benefit of the doubt? I have no agenda or intention. I just want to know where this insight of yours is coming from? Is it subjective or objective?



"The existence of repressed memories is a controversial topic in psychology; some studies have concluded that it can occur in victims of trauma while others dispute it. According to some psychologists, repressed memories can be recovered through therapy. Other psychologists argue that this is in fact rather a process through which false memories are created by blending actual memories and outside influences. Furthermore, some psychologists believe that repressed memories are a cultural symptom because there is no written proof of their existence before the nineteenth century."


PS - I only name drop Freud when being facetious.

Psychology is not a science at all and I suspect that you know that. I have just been to a lecture by a criminologist professor who said that there is a big problem that courts rely on psychology evaluation as there are no scientific backings for it. We have all been deceived by psychology and as we do not rely on non-scientific findings in other fields of our lives it is quite frankly weird that we let psychology keep this sort of stranglehold on us as people and on the world as a whole.

The Nobel prize in psychology goes to........ no one.

 

[Neil Gee]

You said you were qualified but don't want to tell me how or in what way because I would be dismissive? And that I would ridicule you? Why would I do that? Why don't you give me the benefit of the doubt? I have no agenda or intention. I just want to know where this insight of yours is coming from? Is it subjective or objective?



"The existence of repressed memories is a controversial topic in psychology; some studies have concluded that it can occur in victims of trauma while others dispute it. According to some psychologists, repressed memories can be recovered through therapy. Other psychologists argue that this is in fact rather a process through which false memories are created by blending actual memories and outside influences. Furthermore, some psychologists believe that repressed memories are a cultural symptom because there is no written proof of their existence before the nineteenth century."


PS - I only name drop Freud when being facetious.

People like you make me so tired...I've just been through all my posts on this thread and I can't find one that claims I am "qualified" to do anything, but maybe I missed something because I'm tired. I might have said I was qualified to give an opinion! If it eases your heart I will tell you that I have an O level in psychology, that's all, I did pass the mock A level (sorry these are English examinations so you'll have to find the American match) but then the teacher went off sick and we were merged with another class who were at a different stage of the syllabus when we needed to finish ours, apparently she had done it to her class the year before too, and I'd only just about passed the mock so I gave up. I know that's exactly what you want to hear and all you are really bothered about.

Is that wiki article supposed to show that repressed memories don't exist? All it does is say somebody or other has questioned it. The vast majority of psychiatrists agree that it does exist. Sorry.

 

[realitybites]

Psychology is not a science at all and I suspect that you know that. I have just been to a lecture by a criminologist professor who said that there is a big problem that courts rely on psychology evaluation as there are no scientific backings for it. We have all been deceived by psychology and as we do not rely on non-scientific findings in other fields of our lives it is quite frankly weird that we let psychology keep this sort of stranglehold on us as people and on the world as a whole.

The Nobel prize in psychology goes to........ no one.

Psychological research is useful not when it’s quantifiable but when it says something about human nature that is universal and revealing.

 

[Anonymous]

Psychological research is useful not when it’s quantifiable but when it says something about human nature that is universal and revealing.

You cannot have both I'm afraid and this calls your bluff RB. As an atheist you leave an opening for more here. Please be consistent. Think I trust professors and scientists more.

 

[realitybites]

People like you make me so tired...I've just been through all my posts on this thread and I can't find one that claims I am "qualified" to do anything, but maybe I missed something because I'm tired. I might have said I was qualified to give an opinion!

"I have experience that makes me incline to a certain view without boring you with my own qualifications (which would just make you more dismissive of me)."

This was why I was fishing for qualifications. You kind of led me to believe you had some.

If it eases your heart I will tell you that I have an O level in psychology, that's all, I did pass the mock A level (sorry these are English examinations so you'll have to find the American match) but then the teacher went off sick and we were merged with another class who were at a different stage of the syllabus when we needed to finish ours, apparently she had done it to her class the year before too, and I'd only just about passed the mock so I gave up. I know that's exactly what you want to hear and all you are really bothered about.

OK. Thanks for being honest and candid--appreciate that. Are you writing a paper on this? Is this 'research'?

Is that wiki article supposed to show that repressed memories don't exist? All it does is say somebody or other has questioned it. The vast majority of psychiatrists agree that it does exist. Sorry.

It was to give evidence showing that not all members of the mental health community are in agreement. Some deny the existence of repressed memories.

Let's say they exist. Most psychiatrists who do believe in repressed memories would claim that they are the result of severe abuse or trauma. There is no proof Moz suffered these things. You said the proof isn't there because the proof is repressed. This is circular reasoning.

I ask again, how can a man who is emotionally shut down write such emotive, insightful, and passionate lyrics about the human condition? Seems, if anything, his emotions are actually heightened--a super awareness... a sensitivity that is NOT normally found in those with autism spectrum disorders, psychopaths, or 'emotional shutdowns'.

 

[Anonymous]

"I have experience that makes me incline to a certain view without boring you with my own qualifications (which would just make you more dismissive of me)."

This was why I was fishing for qualifications. You kind of led me to believe you had some.



OK. Thanks for being honest and candid--appreciate that. Are you writing a paper on this? Is this 'research'?




It was to give evidence showing that not all members of the mental health community are in agreement. Some deny the existence of repressed memories.

Let's say they exist. Most psychiatrists who do believe in repressed memories would claim that they are the result of severe abuse or trauma. There is no proof Moz suffered these things. You said the proof isn't there because the proof is repressed. This is circular reasoning.

I ask again, how can a man who is emotionally shut down write such emotive, insightful, and passionate lyrics about the human condition? Seems, if anything, his emotions are actually heightened--a super awareness... a sensitivity that is NOT normally found in those with Autism Spectrum Disorders, psychopaths, or 'emotional shutdowns'.

The person who really messed moz up is his mother.

 

[Mozza220559]

Nothing really bad has happened to Moz, in his youth he was just a lazy, miserable kid who got lucky on the old Manchester estate and did well with a lot of people's help. Why did his mum and dad not whip him into shape? Why did they let him mope in his bedroom instead of finding a job and some stability? He's never had to really slum it and work for 30+ years like most us regular folk do, so in the grand scheme of things, what is there to moan about? Plus as his family can't have been that poor if they were buying him plane tickets to the States.

 

[Peterb]

Re: Distorted world view? Why is it so attractive?i

If you've got aspergers you are different, no two ways about it. Lots of people have some mental illness and condition at some point or all the time and it does define what you do to an extent. It's not an excuse but an explanation.

Yes, of course you're right.
I didn't realise we were talking about mental health issues.
Although I think all this cod diagnosis about Moz is bogus.
No one here has a clue and I for one couldn't care less.

 

[Claude]

Hi all I'm new to this forum so was thinking why does Morrissey see the world so differently from the rest of us?

Is his world just wired differently or is there some more basic psychological reason to do with the aggressive macho father and the homosexual (now bisexual) son?

I know this will wind up most Moz fans who only want to see him in a heroic light and I apologise in advance but have you heard of something called child truamatisation? It's a term I've discovered to describe what happens when a child receives a rejection that they can't accept from a parent, and, well, the child just "shuts down". The emotions switch off. It's a kind of safety valve because the child has to refuse this ultimate rejection, has to turn away from it, so rather than deal with the fact that their parent has just shown them absolute hatred where they were expecting sympathy or love they stop feeling anything at all.

Hi Neil,
you seem to raise a number of interesting points.
For what it's worth (that is, nothing), I'll add my view. I already wrote elsewhere that I reckon Morrissey suffers from Asperger's syndrome. Many people don't know, but often, given that teens with Asperger's find it frustrating and emotionally draining to try to fit in, they do become withdrawn and socially isolated ending up with depression or anxiety. Obsessive focus on detail and conversing (often in a one-way fashion) over their favourite topic (read: obsession, ie the New York Dolls) is one of the many traits of Aspergers sufferers.

That said. What I personally found borderline unbearable about the autobiography is Morrissey's contempt for ordinary working people. A few readers brought this up earlier on on this thread.

This is a man who never had his ass kicked into finding a job by his parents. He was allowed to mope about in his bedroom fantasising about the New York Dolls until well into his 20s. Most of us will know that, at 16 (or at least 18), you've got to get your backside into gear and do some more or less demeaning, certainly menial, work. Even if you go to Uni, you'll still be expected to work evenings and/or weekends.

So most of us fantasised about The Smiths, or any other band, while having to learn the meaning of the word "WORK".

Morrissey had his tickets all paid for to spend significant time in the US. It'd be an incredible privilege now, just imagine in the 1970s when the cost of travel was absolutely for the rich only.

And so all his moping and moaning that, say, his 7' picture of a single in 1990 was cropped in the Australian edition - moaning as if it was the end of the world. That is just so childish, so pettily middle class.

You're a privileged man, Morrissey. You are rich. Like the Private Eye spoof thing pointed out, stop making such a big deal out of the fact that your £500,000 cheque came in a shade of light blue. You can live in top hotels for months on end. Most folks have to get up at 6am to put food on the table and pay their bills.

Have some respect.

 

[Neil Gee]

"I have experience that makes me incline to a certain view without boring you with my own qualifications (which would just make you more dismissive of me)."

This was why I was fishing for qualifications. You kind of led me to believe you had some.



It was to give evidence showing that not all members of the mental health community are in agreement. Some deny the existence of repressed memories.

Let's say they exist. Most psychiatrists who do believe in repressed memories would claim that they are the result of severe abuse or trauma. There is no proof Moz suffered these things. You said the proof isn't there because the proof is repressed. This is circular reasoning.

I ask again, how can a man who is emotionally shut down write such emotive, insightful, and passionate lyrics about the human condition? Seems, if anything, his emotions are actually heightened--a super awareness... a sensitivity that is NOT normally found in those with autism spectrum disorders, psychopaths, or 'emotional shutdowns'.

Well done for finding that, I couldn't find it last night (but I was ready to shutdown myself by then).

What I was thinking of when I wrote that was my own experience of childhood trauma, my own experience of how repression works, not any qualifications recognized by the establishment. Of course I can't prove this you'll have to take my word for it but I can't see you taking it any way other than badly - as another reason to dismiss my views - but there you go it seems you have forced my hand.

So if you can write a passionate and emotive song (I don't recollect much "insight") you can't possibly be unwell? Well that's alright then, you have proved your case.

Hi Neil,
you seem to raise a number of interesting points.
For what it's worth (that is, nothing), I'll add my view. I already wrote elsewhere that I reckon Morrissey suffers from Asperger's syndrome. Many people don't know, but often, given that teens with Asperger's find it frustrating and emotionally draining to try to fit in, they do become withdrawn and socially isolated ending up with depression or anxiety. Obsessive focus on detail and conversing (often in a one-way fashion) over their favourite topic (read: obsession, ie the New York Dolls) is one of the many traits of Aspergers sufferers.

That said. What I personally found borderline unbearable about the autobiography is Morrissey's contempt for ordinary working people. A few readers brought this up earlier on on this thread.

This is a man who never had his ass kicked into finding a job by his parents. He was allowed to mope about in his bedroom fantasising about the New York Dolls until well into his 20s. Most of us will know that, at 16 (or at least 18), you've got to get your backside into gear and do some more or less demeaning, certainly menial, work. Even if you go to Uni, you'll still be expected to work evenings and/or weekends.
.

They say Gary Numan has aspergus...I think the healthy human reaction is to change your life if what you are doing is not working for you, unless there's some reason why you can't change it. I didn't pick up so much on the contempt for the working class in the book but you can see from his treatment of David T that he has contempt for his fans.

 

[Anonymous]

The person who really messed moz up is his mother.

Nobody messes anybody up. And if they do the line is, I believe, "They mess you up your mum AND dad." But maybe "mess up" is too strong a word. Your mum and dad just shape the way you're going to deal with people, I think.

Your mum loves you unconditionally, your dad constantly puts you down? Well maybe later you're going to love some people unconditionally, and put some other people down; the outsiders will see no objective reason for you to do so. Why would you praise a band line-up and ridicule this other guitarist? Because you're a proud father when your boys obey and a mean father when they don't? something like that.
(Interestingly, there's probably more of the young Morrissey in the rebel musicians that left than in those who stayed, but the old Morrissey would probably need someone to point that out.)
Questions a shrink might ask:
Why try to play people against each other? Are you hoping to relive your childhood, and be a spectator in a grown ups' fight?
Why try to provoke jealousy and need for recognition? Are you hoping people will act like kids competing for your affection?
Why try to play the victim? Are you hoping this will end the conflict and everyone will love you in the end?
And when none of this works to your satisfaction, why show shame and guilt? Are you hoping people will forgive, and blame your parents for everything?

Well, look above, it's working.

And why still want your daddy to love you when you've got so many mummies who love you no matter what? And why burden anyone else with that task?
You only have one dad. So you weren't good enough for him, and you're still torn between punishing him and telling the world you love him? Well, maybe your dad cares. But why would anyone who's not your dad care if you treat them this way? And why should people care if you don't love them? They'd have to have the same kind of issues as you. Well, a lot of people have issues, but you'd have to be really lucky.

I'm sure everyone realizes there are some people out there who are not professionally qualified to say that kind of stuff, but will say it anyway. And will still manage not to give a f. about 540 pages of npd answers to the Problem that is Morrissey. They probably wouldn't even read his psychiatrist's essay about him!

...Now, I wonder, is that what you meant by "emotional shutdown"?

Nailed it.

Oh and, does anyone else think Morrissey being raped by his Algebra teacher in the gym or something was his own little private fantasy and his own way to deal with his latent homosexuality and the, er, tension at home? No? Oh well, it's probably true then.