Just How Great Is Viva Hate?

[fredkocherpepsi]

Me too! I just know I find it fantastically enjoyable. But these things can often change over time.

I was telling my wife today how I’ve listened to the album so many times...she’s yet to hear it. haha

 

[Orson Swells]

I was telling my wife today how I’ve listened to the album so many times...she’s yet to hear it. haha

I feel a bit sorry for the people who aren't enjoying it as much as us, because they're missing out on a real treat.

 

[fredkocherpepsi]

I feel a bit sorry for the people who aren't enjoying it as much as us, because they're missing out on a real treat.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[nothappynotsad]

He is a philanthropist with a huge dick. So, you know, pretty great.

 

[chrisarclark]

Viva Hate is home to 3 of Morrissey's great songs ever (his work with The Smiths included)- "Suedehead", "Everyday Is Like Sunday" and "Late Night, Maudlin Street". There are a few other excellent songs and maybe 2 or 3 somewhat duff, but still charming tracks. It's a great album- probably more for what it represents than what it actually is- but it's not in the same class as Your Arsenal and Vauxhall And I (though relatively few albums by any artists in any time are).

VH is a distant 4/5 to YA and VAI's 5/5. It's probably on par with (maybe a shade better than) The Smiths, but falling short of Meat Is Murder, The Queen Is Dead and Strangeways, Here We Come.

 

[Jamie]

I feel a bit sorry for the people who aren't enjoying it as much as us, because they're missing out on a real treat.

I was going to say: "Don't pity us." But then I remembered that I felt the same way about Southpaw Grammar in 1995 - and the number of years after when few appreciated it. So pity away.

 

[marred]

How great? It's Hate Great!

If I ever had the guts to get a Mozzer tattoo that would be it

 

[Agharta]

To respond to some of the very interesting points raised so far:

'Hairdresser On Fire' - I absolutely think he was right to release the album as he did in the UK, and inserting this song into the US version was a mistake. It's a nice enough tune, but its tonally completely wrong for the album, being far too lightweight and silly.

As it stands, the UK tracklisting is perfect in my eyes and ears. The album is a song cycle, an examination of what it meant to grow up in Britain in the 60s, 70s and on into the 80s. It feels like an intensely personal thing, and while treating art as autobiography can be dangerous, its tempting to see Morrissey pouring a whole lot of himself into these songs. Is it a coincidence that his parents divorced in 1972 and that year gets a mention in the album's longest, perhaps strongest track? Maybe, but then again....

While this could all become a bit 'This Is Your Life' self-referential, Morrissey's genius is to take that personal truth and make the album's songs speak universally - here is all the unrequited love, the passions, the depressions, the struggles, the triumphs and the hard won wisdoms that characterise most of our own journeys through childhood, adolescence and adult years All with killer tunes. Just like The Smiths best albums, then.

I'm not with those who think the second half sags. For me, those songs just flow so well into and out of each other, peeling back new layers of the same themes. Lyrically, 'Break Up The Family' is a gorgeous, aching revisit on those opening lines of 'There Is A Light' - a more mature yearning for companionship and reforging connections.

I mean, every time I hear him sing these lines - with that sad, knowing sweetness - it chimes so much with my own teenage years I can only marvel:

It wasn't youth, it wasn't life
Born old, sadly wise
Resigned (well, we were)
To ending our lives
I'm so glad to grow older
To move away from those awful times
I want to see all my friends tonight

And was there ever a more poignantly and beautifully sung lyric about the perils of trying to fit in than this, in the sublime 'Dial-A-Cliche'?

But the person underneath
where does he go?
does he slide by the wayside?
or...does he just die?
when you find that you've organized
your feelings, for people
who didn't like you then
and do not like you now

Without wishing to carp about the new album, the way Morrissey deftly touches on this subject of self-actualisation is light years beyond the clumsy, whinging and lumpen writing of "I'm Not a Man", for example.

On the subject of how the album sounds, I think the recent remaster was sonically a great job, revealing more nuances and textures in the songs. So I've used that remastered version - with 'Ordinary Boys' restored from the original and the beginning and ending of 'Maudlin Street' edited back in - to produce the definitve version for myself. If you like the album, I'd recommend giving that a go - it has never sounded better, and stands up against anything he's done, The Smiths included. If you're American, you might not 'get' the anti-Thatcherite last song (for me, its a bold, compassionate rallying call for those who watched as the heart got cut out of our country), but anyone with ears can hear beauty and delicacy in the acoustic, almost folky treatment of the song which Street's remaster shines fresh light on.

When I refer above to lumpen writing in 'I'm not a Man' - something which characterizes a lot of WPINOYB - I think this might be my major issue with both Vauxhall & I and Your Arsenal too. While those earlier albums are nowhere near as dreadfully written as this current one, I do think there are signs creeping in that Morrissey is losing his muse somewhat.

For example, Vauxhall's first three songs are lovely and poetic and really set the bar high. But then he goes and does 'Hold Onto Your Friends', which is just cringeworthy and lacking any of the deftness, grace or 'show not tell' aesthetic that the previous songs displayed and which courses through Viva Hate.

There are other songs on Vauxhall which suffer from the same dead hand on them - 'The Lazy Sunbathers' is just the pits, for example, and there's bad writing and a certain lack of discipline sprinkled across in most of the other tracks. Its not enough to ruin the album, but it does throw a spanner into my enjoyment of the work.

Maybe I'm way too fussy? Probably. But I think most of what The Smiths did and what Morrissey managed to produce with Viva Hate were stone cold classics - lasting works of art that unite a staggering lyricism with a knockout musicality. Since Viva Hate, I think he has struggled to display anything like the same consistency. Your Arsenal, for example, starts strongly but then really nose dives when he gets all preachy and bitchily, annoyingly tiresome with We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful - one of those "listen to me!" Moz songs where all you need is the title to know how bad it's going to be. And then, as if that's not enough, what's this ridiculously lame bollocks about someone called Fatty doing on the album? No, no and just no. No matter that the album then ends with 3 wonderful songs, it's been sunk by those awful torpedoes. From Arsenal to ARSEnal and back again.

Anyway, enough negativity. We have 'Viva Hate', and that's all I really need right now. Go play it loud and remember how insanely good he could be.

 

[bhops]

To respond to some of the very interesting points raised so far:

'Hairdresser On Fire' - I absolutely think he was right to release the album as he did in the UK, and inserting this song into the US version was a mistake. It's a nice enough tune, but its tonally completely wrong for the album, being far too lightweight and silly.

As it stands, the UK tracklisting is perfect in my eyes and ears. The album is a song cycle, an examination of what it meant to grow up in Britain in the 60s, 70s and on into the 80s. It feels like an intensely personal thing, and while treating art as autobiography can be dangerous, its tempting to see Morrissey pouring a whole lot of himself into these songs. Is it a coincidence that his parents divorced in 1972 and that year gets a mention in the album's longest, perhaps strongest track? Maybe, but then again....

While this could all become a bit 'This Is Your Life' self-referential, Morrissey's genius is to take that personal truth and make the album's songs speak universally - here is all the unrequited love, the passions, the depressions, the struggles, the triumphs and the hard won wisdoms that characterise most of our own journeys through childhood, adolescence and adult years All with killer tunes. Just like The Smiths best albums, then.

I'm not with those who think the second half sags. For me, those songs just flow so well into and out of each other, peeling back new layers of the same themes. Lyrically, 'Break Up The Family' is a gorgeous, aching revisit on those opening lines of 'There Is A Light' - a more mature yearning for companionship and reforging connections.

I mean, every time I hear him sing these lines - with that sad, knowing sweetness - it chimes so much with my own teenage years I can only marvel:

It wasn't youth, it wasn't life
Born old, sadly wise
Resigned (well, we were)
To ending our lives
I'm so glad to grow older
To move away from those awful times
I want to see all my friends tonight

And was there ever a more poignantly and beautifully sung lyric about the perils of trying to fit in than this, in the sublime 'Dial-A-Cliche'?

But the person underneath
where does he go?
does he slide by the wayside?
or...does he just die?
when you find that you've organized
your feelings, for people
who didn't like you then
and do not like you now

Without wishing to carp about the new album, the way Morrissey deftly touches on this subject of self-actualisation is light years beyond the clumsy, whinging and lumpen writing of "I'm Not a Man", for example.

On the subject of how the album sounds, I think the recent remaster was sonically a great job, revealing more nuances and textures in the songs. So I've used that remastered version - with 'Ordinary Boys' restored from the original and the beginning and ending of 'Maudlin Street' edited back in - to produce the definitve version for myself. If you like the album, I'd recommend giving that a go - it has never sounded better, and stands up against anything he's done, The Smiths included. If you're American, you might not 'get' the anti-Thatcherite last song (for me, its a bold, compassionate rallying call for those who watched as the heart got cut out of our country), but anyone with ears can hear beauty and delicacy in the acoustic, almost folky treatment of the song which Street's remaster shines fresh light on.

When I refer above to lumpen writing in 'I'm not a Man' - something which characterizes a lot of WPINOYB - I think this might be my major issue with both Vauxhall & I and Your Arsenal too. While those earlier albums are nowhere near as dreadfully written as this current one, I do think there are signs creeping in that Morrissey is losing his muse somewhat.

For example, Vauxhall's first three songs are lovely and poetic and really set the bar high. But then he goes and does 'Hold Onto Your Friends', which is just cringeworthy and lacking any of the deftness, grace or 'show not tell' aesthetic that the previous songs displayed and which courses through Viva Hate.

There are other songs on Vauxhall which suffer from the same dead hand on them - 'The Lazy Sunbathers' is just the pits, for example, and there's bad writing and a certain lack of discipline sprinkled across in most of the other tracks. Its not enough to ruin the album, but it does throw a spanner into my enjoyment of the work.

Maybe I'm way too fussy? Probably. But I think most of what The Smiths did and what Morrissey managed to produce with Viva Hate were stone cold classics - lasting works of art that unite a staggering lyricism with a knockout musicality. Since Viva Hate, I think he has struggled to display anything like the same consistency. Your Arsenal, for example, starts strongly but then really nose dives when he gets all preachy and bitchily, annoyingly tiresome with We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful - one of those "listen to me!" Moz songs where all you need is the title to know how bad it's going to be. And then, as if that's not enough, what's this ridiculously lame bollocks about someone called Fatty doing on the album? No, no and just no. No matter that the album then ends with 3 wonderful songs, it's been sunk by those awful torpedoes. From Arsenal to ARSEnal and back again.

Anyway, enough negativity. We have 'Viva Hate', and that's all I really need right now. Go play it loud and remember how insanely good he could be.

Better yet why not accept that Morrissey is never going to float your boat again and don't bother buying any of his new stuff. That way you won't be disappointed nor have to spend valuable minutes of your life making countless posts in various threads about how good he used to be. With all of this accumulated time you could probably fit in an extra listen of Viva Hate each week, sat right next to the speakers really concentrating on it.

 

[Orson Swells]

Without wishing to carp about the new album

Better yet why not accept that Morrissey is never going to float your boat again and don't bother buying any of his new stuff. That way you won't be disappointed nor have to spend valuable minutes of your life making countless posts in various threads about how good he used to be. With all of this accumulated time you could probably fit in an extra listen of Viva Hate each week, sat right next to the speakers really concentrating on it.

How true.

 

[Agharta]

Better yet why not accept that Morrissey is never going to float your boat again and don't bother buying any of his new stuff. That way you won't be disappointed nor have to spend valuable minutes of your life making countless posts in various threads about how good he used to be. With all of this accumulated time you could probably fit in an extra listen of Viva Hate each week, sat right next to the speakers really concentrating on it.

That's rather mean spirited and blinkered of you. I could equally as well ask you not to spend your valuable time in this thread making no reference to the actual subject of the thread. Feel free to input on what you think of Viva Hate - that would be very welcome.

If it upsets you that much that I don't like the new album, I'm sorry, but my view is my view and I have as much right to air it as you do.

There is always hope that a once great artist can be truly great again - witness Bob Dylan pulling out 'Blood On The Tracks' a decade after his last real classic 'Blonde On Blonde'. It's not too much of a stretch to wonder if Morrissey, only in his mid 50s now, can come up with a work of enduring maturity, is it? That's mostly what fuels my comments about the new album - my disappointment that it is not what I thought perhaps it might be.

It might, on the other hand, be too late - maybe Morrissey is too far gone down a certain path to pull out a showstopper at this stage of the game? The only we'll ever know is to keep at least one eye open, isn't it?

So, anyway, cheers for the advice, but I don't think that is what I will do. My time is my own and I will spend it how I wish, thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

i do think viva hate is more for british people who first found morrissey as he was portrayed in the smiths and the press of the time.

for the sake of it heres my list of album rankings.

-1. bona drag (yes im aware its a comp but as an album its superb though i skip the already released singles featured on viva hate)

-2. youre arsenal

-3. swords (yes its a b-sides album but i play it way more than other offical albums)

-4. you are the query

-5. maladjusted (re sequenced as with maladjusted being the first track i can just skip it and pretend that the album really starts on track two. being able to do this bumped it up a couple spots)

-6. viva hate

-7. years of refusal

-8. vauxhall and I

-9. kill uncle

-10. southpaw grammar

-11. ringleader of the tormentors


world peace doesnt figure in yet. to early still but im guessing its gonna be somewhere around three or four.

 

[sorrow of stamford bridge]

I think anyone's ranking of Moz's canon will be shaped by their age or life events at the time a record was released. I bought Your Arsenal in 1992 as a sixteen year old at the point that the tour and promotion was coming to a close. It felt like an age waiting for Vauxhall (I'm sure it was originally due for autumn 1993) but what was delivered was astounding and resonated with me at that time. Yes, Hold Onto Your Friends and Used To Be A Sweet Boy felt a bit lame...but, the album can be very happily played again and again as a whole (as it has been in my car since May). I can say the same of Viva and Arsenal, but vocally, lyrically, Vauxhall is the one I'd take to the desert island.

I am really enjoying WPINOYB. Sonically there are nods back to Arsenal and Vauxhall. It is also really good to hear his voice back at what I can only describe as a pre-Quarry pitch. Mountjoy and Oboe Concerto take me to a happy yet sad place. The descent of the bass at the end of Mountjoy really pulls at the guts. Istanbul with its Jack The Ripper-like riff is still sounding terrific. Kiss Me A Lot feels like it has top 5 single written all over it. Staircase is growing on me despite it having a Lightning Seeds feel, which is not a good thing. Still trying to work out I'm Not A Man and Neal Cassady, but starting to warm to the latter. It is a crying shame that Kick The Bride Down The Aisle has been undermined by the wailing parasite, Morrissey's voice sounds tinny and lost underneath the cat strangulation. Unfortunately, we can't blame her for Earth...I haven't heard the delux bonus tracks yet, but I wager that swapping any of them into the album proper would enhance it. Oh, and Smiler...his voice is beautiful, as is the musical arrangement. I don't know if WPINOYB can justify a place in his top three solo albums, but there is still much to sit back and enjoy...just perhaps not on a straight path from track 1 to 12.