Morrissey & Marr/The Severed Alliance

Read it and weep baby....read it and weep:lbf:
It was up to M&M to prove there was an agreement / arrangement in place, they tried and they failed:thumb:

Jukebox Jury

You're silly. :lbf:

Actually, my question was never answered as to where that statement came from, so it says nothing to me, really. I still stand strongly by what I've posted and believe Morrissey's statement above all else. And, yes, before you say it, of course I would.

You say you can separate the trial from the individuals, but I find that so hard to believe. Why else would you even care? The very reason why it's such a hot topic is because of who it involves...You vote Joyce - I vote Morrissey. It's a subject you and I will never agree on. :flowers:
 
You're silly. :lbf:
I still stand strongly by what I've posted and believe Morrissey's statement above all else. And, yes, before you say it, of course I would.

Based on fact or based on ''Morrissey said it, so it must be right'':rolleyes:

You say you can separate the trial from the individuals, but I find that so hard to believe. Why else would you even care?

So you are saying you cannot seperate the trial from the individuals? You are saying ''I love Morrissey 100% no matter what he does, even if he is in the wrong, he is right'':rolleyes:
It's not about 'why else would I even care', I believe that every man (women) should have a fair trial and the right to a fair hearing. Morrissey had TWO trials / TWO hearings and lost both - yet you are SO convinced he was wronged...what do YOU know that Morrissey's lawyers couldn't convince TWO judges to rule on his side?

Jukebox Jury
 
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They can smell people like Morrissey. It's likely they knew his reputation as the moping minstrel with the flowers shoved down his pants, and it's also likely that he was not successful at hiding his contempt for the authorities of the courts. Above somewhere in there someone has stated that the judges in these trials had to choose who to believe. It's possible that they chose that based on sympathy for Joyce, or out of spite at Morrissey's attitude.
 
This is not inconsistent with Morrissey's character, and since he can afford it I think it's really hard to fault him for it. It doesn't make sense financially, but if Morrissey really believes that he is being cheated, I can see how the spitefulness of his actions might be justifiable, or more clearly, how they might seem to be justifiable.
He should have just paid, though, and avoided the stress. But maybe it's less stressful to fight it than to give in. And it's not ALL on Morrissey, either. The same finger points at Joyce. Why doesn't he drop it? Same exact reason. He believes he is in the right.

I doubt either of them cares about judges but only about judgments.

yes, standing up for your principles
 
They can smell people like Morrissey. It's likely they knew his reputation as the moping minstrel with the flowers shoved down his pants, and it's also likely that he was not successful at hiding his contempt for the authorities of the courts. Above somewhere in there someone has stated that the judges in these trials had to choose who to believe. It's possible that they chose that based on sympathy for Joyce, or out of spite at Morrissey's attitude.
yes

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1711.html

I have already sought to explain my firm opinion that that was not the judge’s meaning. I am quite clear that the judge was expressing no more than an impression of the value of Mr Morrissey’s oral evidence. Ordinarily speaking it is an adjective reserved for a witness who has deliberately sought to mislead the court either by untruthful statements or by suppression of the truth. As Mr Davis QC made plain Mr Morrissey was not such a witness. Mr Davis told us that in many instances Mr Morrissey was candid to his own disadvantage. What the transcripts reveal to me is that Mr Morrissey was a litigant who fell into the common trap of understanding the adversarial process as either obliging him or alternatively presenting him with the opportunity to fight a war of words with his cross examiner. As many famous trials have demonstrated however intelligent and gifted the litigant the ground upon which the contest takes place is so uneven that he is inevitably worsted. By misinterpreting his role Mr Morrissey clearly forfeited the judge’s sympathy and I suspect that the judge intended to convey no more than that Mr Morrissey’s first priority had been to fence with Mr Davis rather than to concentrate on giving answers that were clear, relevant and helpful to the judge in carrying out his difficult task. It is unfortunate that the adjective selected does not clearly convey that meaning and clearly conveys other meanings. It also has the disadvantage of providing the press with an easy headline.
 
Snow news day ref: old ground and the court case?

Anyway were do all these transcripts/ evidence etc come from in this thread as I've never seen them before in such detail.

That exchange in the court between Morrissey and Joyce's QC was amusing but the High Court is not a place to show your wit.


As for the book the Severed Alliance when the book was released in 1992 to those fans about at the time (and not to be snotty but I guess a few of you weren't) it was like a godsend despite Morrissey (and Marr's) protestations as it was the first tome that detailed The Smiths history in all its messy glory, and actually gave some of us some insight into why they split up. So I would not bother reading until Morrissey and Marr meet. I found the book (I haven't read it since '92 mind) had quite a good narrative from that point onwards.

A lot of the book pre-Smiths was idle gossip which Mr Rogan decided was worthy of inclusion eg the comment about Pakistanis.

(Oh shit have I started is Morrissey a racist debate now?)

Subsequent Rogan books about Morrissey have been complete crap only worthy of reading on the toilet.

A little known fact about The Severed Alliance and Johnny Rogan. The book had been used in a court case before when Mr Rogan sued Julie Burchill/ News INternational for lifting wholesale passages from the book during her assassination of Morrissey in The Sunday Times c 1994. I believe they call it plagiarism. I don't know the outcome of this case, does anyone?
 
They were found in breach of the Partnership Act 189x. Judge Weekes did not know who the plaintiffs or defendants were previously.

To put things in perspective in my book these are example of miscarriages of justice The Birmingham 6, The Guildford Four, Stefan Kisko, Cardiff Three, Darvell Brothers, PAtrick Nicholls and Derek Bentley

Not Morrissey being the millionaire victim of a crappy conspiracy theory. IN his head.
 
It's apparent that it has cost Morrissey a lot in terms of legal fees and lost royalties over the years for refusing to pay up initially.

I'm not well up on legal issues, but once the amount owed had been recovered through the legal judgements refered to, wouldn't they then stop? Having got all he was entitled to, according to the judgement.
So what is the current state of affairs? Is it all done and dusted, or is Joyce still receiving more than his share of the appropriate royalties? If so, why?

:confused:
 
I kept this statement and feel it should be reposted. Don't tell me that Morrissey never paid Joyce a thing or that Mike is not a greedy little man. Obviously you value Joyce over Morrissey - but these are the facts. Like it or not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

30 November 2005

Statement from Morrissey:

The latest statements from M Joyce on a BBC 6 radio interview as faithfully reported on the MorrisseySoLow site have been brought to my attention and I feel I should make this reply as an attempt to put the matter straight.

1. From '83 to '87 M Joyce happily and willingly received 10% of Smiths recording royalties.

2. In '89, as is documented, Joyce sued Morrissey & Marr for 25% of Smiths recording royalties.

3. In '96, Joyce took his claim to court - and on the basis of the 1890 Partnership Act the judge awarded Joyce 25%.

4. In '97, M Joyce was paid 215 thousand pounds from me, and 215 thousand pounds from Johnny Marr.

5. In '99, Joyce appeared on British television and made the statement: "There was no contract saying we were gonna get 25%."

6. In 2001, as a final payment of back royalties, Johnny Marr paid Joyce 260 thousand pounds, plus "costs." At this time I was in the US and was not served with court proceedings, so Joyce obtained a Default Judgment. He then put forward a claim from me for 688 thousand pounds - well above and beyond the amount Johnny Marr was ordered to pay. In my absence, the figure was not contested.

7. Since 2001, and because of the Default Judgment against me, Joyce has taken out Third Party Orders against the following societies: my personal bank account in England, Smiths royalties from Warner Music, my personal PRS royalties, my personal PPL royalties, and he has attempted to seize UK concert fees from venue to venue. This money, to date, totals 700 thousand pounds. This figure is in addition to the figures mentioned above.

8. By grabbing the full total of Smiths royalties from Warner Music (and this means that when the public buy a Smiths CD in the UK, the royalties go to Joyce, and have done so since 2001) Joyce has knowingly deprived Andy Rourke of his 10% Smiths royalties, and has deprived producers John Porter, Stephen Street, Grant Showbiz and Steve Lillywhite (for "Ask") of their entitlements. Joyce did not declare to the courts that others - namely, the above - were also beneficiaries to the Warner Music royalties.

9. In 2001, Joyce attempted to seize both my mother's house and my sister's house by claiming that I had taken my assets out of the UK; he made this claim even though he had direct access to all of the above – which are in the UK. Joyce eventually dropped both of these claims due to lack of evidence, and he refused to pay the 150 thousand pounds that it had cost me to defend his groundless claims. Joyce also dropped his claim as co-composer with Johnny M on Smiths compositions, and Joyce also dropped his claim for Producer royalties on Smiths recordings, and Joyce also dropped his claim for a share of Artwork payments given to me for providing Smiths record sleeves. There were, in fact, no payments to me for Smiths Artwork. Joyce made a further claim for 25% of all Smiths t-shirts sold during the '83 to '87 period, even though there was no evidence that any royalty for t-shirts had been received by either myself or Johnny Marr.

10. In legal fees alone, Joyce has cost me 600 thousand pounds - this is quite apart from any payments made to him, and is quite apart from any money seized by him. In total, Joyce has cost me 1 million, 515 thousand pounds. This is an approximate figure - it could even be higher.

11. The Joyce action is continuous. Because of his Default Judgment he continues to take my royalties, and the royalties of others mentioned above, from Warner Music - consequently I have not received record royalties since 2001.

12. Since 2001, the money claimed by Joyce is charged, to me, at 100 pounds a day in interest.

13. During the Smiths' lifetime, when Joyce willingly took a 10% royalty, he did not contribute towards any expenses of any kind, did not take on any Partnership duties or responsibilities, and he received his 10% as gross earnings.

The point I wish to make is this: Joyce is not poor, unless, living as he does in the Cheshire green-belt, he lives beyond his means. Somehow, he appears to believe that he should have equal financial status to both myself and to Johnny Marr, even though Joyce has done dramatically less than Johnny and I to attain the positions we now have.

Joyce is not poor because of one reason - me. His career now is the fictitious position of an unpaid ex-member of the Smiths. He has also pursued all of his claims on Legal Aid.

I don't make this statement in search of sympathy from anyone, but I wish that the people at MorrisseySoLow who support Joyce would at least get their facts right before they say anything. Even with his 10% share, Joyce was wealthy. Now, he is extremely wealthy.

What more does he want?

I have fought the Joyce action as much as I could over the years, but the simple truth is that, under British law, the word of a judge will not be overturned. In the absence of any evidence from the 1980s, the judge in this case relied upon the Partnership Act of 1890 to help Joyce win his claim. Joyce has exploited the judge's final verdict in order to get as much as he can from me, from Johnny Marr, and also from Andy Rourke.

Finally, Joyce does not have the legal right to sell unreleased Smiths material - it belongs to Warner Music. Joyce did not pay for the recording time under which any demo material was recorded. Furthermore, Joyce cannot sell any unreleased work by Johnny Marr or Andy Rourke without, at very least, their permission.

Thanks for reading this,
MORRISSEY.

These are NOT the facts. These are Morrissey's (and his solicitors) version of the facts. I'm sure Mike Joyce and his lawyer have a different versionof the facts.

"The law is an ass."
 
[/B] yes

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1711.html

I have already sought to explain my firm opinion that that was not the judge’s meaning. I am quite clear that the judge was expressing no more than an impression of the value of Mr Morrissey’s oral evidence. Ordinarily speaking it is an adjective reserved for a witness who has deliberately sought to mislead the court either by untruthful statements or by suppression of the truth. As Mr Davis QC made plain Mr Morrissey was not such a witness. Mr Davis told us that in many instances Mr Morrissey was candid to his own disadvantage. What the transcripts reveal to me is that Mr Morrissey was a litigant who fell into the common trap of understanding the adversarial process as either obliging him or alternatively presenting him with the opportunity to fight a war of words with his cross examiner. As many famous trials have demonstrated however intelligent and gifted the litigant the ground upon which the contest takes place is so uneven that he is inevitably worsted. By misinterpreting his role Mr Morrissey clearly forfeited the judge’s sympathy and I suspect that the judge intended to convey no more than that Mr Morrissey’s first priority had been to fence with Mr Davis rather than to concentrate on giving answers that were clear, relevant and helpful to the judge in carrying out his difficult task. It is unfortunate that the adjective selected does not clearly convey that meaning and clearly conveys other meanings. It also has the disadvantage of providing the press with an easy headline.

What this excerpt doesn't make clear is that in the absence of legal contracts the judge was forced to make a decision about the quality of testimony given by the various parties. The case pushed him into forming an opinion about Morrissey. He didn't just interject his personal feelings in the case. Because neither side presented ironclad evidence in support of their claims, their credibility as witnesses became a proper and perfectly reasonable element to consider in the final judgment. This is exactly what Morrissey should have been made to understand by his legal counsel: do not fight a war of words, say your bit, smile, and then go back to your seat and shut up. I think we all know how Morrissey would respond to such advice, but that doesn't make it wrong.
 
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It's apparent that it has cost Morrissey a lot in terms of legal fees and lost royalties over the years for refusing to pay up initially.

I'm not well up on legal issues, but once the amount owed had been recovered through the legal judgements refered to, wouldn't they then stop? Having got all he was entitled to, according to the judgement.
So what is the current state of affairs? Is it all done and dusted, or is Joyce still receiving more than his share of the appropriate royalties? If so, why?

:confused:

It's the glaring absence in the public record, isn't it? Morrissey and Marr were sued as equal partners, and hence, in the eyes of the law, considered a single defendant. And yet only one of them is being 'persecuted' by Joyce.
 
I get it now. Morrissey is bad because he broke up the Smiths over money, or because his actions have ensured that they will never reform. Or maybe because it's less embarrassing not to support a sometimes spiteful and vindictive pop star against an average guy that happened to be part of something historical.

Who you think is right might depend on whether you think Morrissey's career peaked on The Queen Is Dead.
 
morrissey quote....

S: And then all of a sudden you have... the wealth of the world at your feet... there is a certain guilt that comes with that, surely?
M: Yeah, there is working-class guilt, and erm... yeah, I do still have that. And I am very nervous about money, it's like Kirk Douglas saying that he always expects his money to be taken away from him, even now, because he was born in extreme poverty... y'know, when you're working-class, you're... drilled with the belief that there are... governing classes elsewhere who know better than you, and who know what's best for you. And er... I fight with that.

S: So is that one of the reasons why you're continuing with the court case?
M: Well I'm continuing with the court case because it was very unjust, it was severely unjust to me, and the Judge John Weeks was appalling, very injudicious and very unintelligent and very, very rude... but the whole judicial system in England is under incredible review now, people are criticising it, people are sick to death of these old judges, who don't know what they're talking about, effectively destroying people's lives... and it really has to come to an end because it's the old England. And there is no governing body in England whereby you can complain about judges. Because the Lord Chancellor, Lord Irving, who professes to take on complaints about judges - they don't do anything of the kind. They just collect your complaints and give them to the judge and protect the judge

S: But you could just save yourself bother, all this angst, - and you're going to have to go through it again now - by just saying "Look, take this money..."
M: The appeal system in England is no good because you simply go before three... white male individuals who are the same age and the same background of the judge who you're fighting against... so there's absolutely no point with the appeal system, it's absolutely ludicrous. So you have to find a barrister who is prepared to fight a judge, and that's very very difficult because they all... they're all a member of the same club, they all have this code of conduct and silence where they protect each other against... the peasants like me, who nonetheless dish out the money all the time. It's an astonishing political system that really is so old and has to end.
 
continued......

S: Yeah, they should make them just box each other...
M: Well... that would be much more interesting, but, unfortunately, what they're really doing is just wreaking havoc on people's lives, and I think of this Judge John Weeks, and every single day of his life he's passing judgement over other people and I think it's tragic.

S: You know this guy's name, he's obviously gnawing at the back of your head... why don't you just say "Let's leave it, I'm gonna live in LA", and revenge.. have your own revenge by... living healthily?
M: Because this judge is a menace... and he's a social menace, and he's still going on. And he's wreaking havoc everywhere with other people, and I don't see why these people, this judge should be protected. Because he's very very dangerous to society.

S: Well, er, obviously I don't know as much about it, but you're definitely, er, he's, he's got you... he's making you angry...
M: Well...

S: Is there a song about him on the next album?
M: Well I, I'd never please him that much, because, y'know judges, they want to be remembered. And they will be outrageous so that we'll all remember them forever. No, I'd never... I'd never give him that much satisfaction.
 
morrissey quote....

S: But you could just save yourself bother, all this angst, - and you're going to have to go through it again now - by just saying "Look, take this money..."
M: The appeal system in England is no good because you simply go before three... white male individuals who are the same age and the same background of the judge who you're fighting against... so there's absolutely no point with the appeal system, it's absolutely ludicrous. So you have to find a barrister who is prepared to fight a judge, and that's very very difficult because they all... they're all a member of the same club, they all have this code of conduct and silence where they protect each other against... the peasants like me, who nonetheless dish out the money all the time. It's an astonishing political system that really is so old and has to end.

Yes, there is absolutely no point with the appeal system so I shall go right ahead and appeal:rolleyes:

Jukebox Jury
 
lainey, I'm sympathetic to Morrissey's wounds-- I am-- but those comments are absolutely ridiculous. A very wealthy, undereducated, middle-aged white man born into a working class home complaining that the judicial system doesn't work because another wealthy (Morrissey's own term), undereducated, middle-aged white man born into a working class home sued him and won, while somewhere else in the world a very wealthy, undereducated, middle-aged white man born into a working class home who was also sued and also lost is completely free of the whole entanglement-- well, it's just a bit rich, that's all. :lbf:

M: Well I, I'd never please him that much, because, y'know judges, they want to be remembered. And they will be outrageous so that we'll all remember them forever. No, I'd never... I'd never give him that much satisfaction.

Oopsie.
 
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Based on fact or based on ''Morrissey said it, so it must be right'':rolleyes:



So you are saying you cannot seperate the trial from the individuals? You are saying ''I love Morrissey 100% no matter what he does, even if he is in the wrong, he is right'':rolleyes:
It's not about 'why else would I even care', I believe that every man (women) should have a fair trial and the right to a fair hearing. Morrissey had TWO trials / TWO hearings and lost both - yet you are SO convinced he was wronged...what do YOU know that Morrissey's lawyers couldn't convince TWO judges to rule on his side?

Jukebox Jury

Okay - first, why do you feel like you must belittle me for feeling so strongly about the trial and siding with Morrissey? You're doing that, whether you know it not, by putting quotation marks around sentences that never fell from my mouth...

Second, I sincerely do believe Morrissey was "wronged". I sincerely do believe that Mike knew he was getting 10% and was happy with it. He realized that because there was no contract he could sue for more money. And, he did. That's fact. He won, but I feel it was only because Morrissey was doomed before he set foot in the courtroom.

Third, I can separate the individuals from the trial - and even when I do, I still side with the one who lost. Why? Because he and the other unfortunate mate that was wronged, are the ones who made it all work. The one suing contributed very little, so why should he get an equal part?

:rolleyes: It doesn't matter what I say...you're set. And, frankly, I'm bored with this conversation now.
 
Okay - first, why do you feel like you must belittle me for feeling so strongly about the trial and siding with Morrissey? You're doing that, whether you know it not, by putting quotation marks around sentences that never fell from my mouth...

Second, I sincerely do believe Morrissey was "wronged". I sincerely do believe that Mike knew he was getting 10% and was happy with it. He realized that because there was no contract he could sue for more money. And, he did. That's fact. He won, but I feel it was only because Morrissey was doomed before he set foot in the courtroom.

Third, I can separate the individuals from the trial - and even when I do, I still side with the one who lost. Why? Because he and the other unfortunate mate that was wronged, are the ones who made it all work. The one suing contributed very little, so why should he get an equal part?

:rolleyes: It doesn't matter what I say...you're set. And, frankly, I'm bored with this conversation now.

If I belittle you (which has never been my intention) it is because you make daft comments that make me laugh and that call for a response.
It doesn't matter what I say, you too are all set, so lets leave this post whilst I'm ahead and we'll say no more:thumb:

Jukebox Jury
 
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facts? no thx ignoring dave
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