Obama backs plans for a mosque to be built

Ground Zero itself may very well be designated as "untouchable,"

Not when there's a f***ing Burger King across the street. I know that recent poll data suggests 87% of Americans would just love a Burger King, McDonald's, or Dairy Queen re-located inside their local church, since God has become fast food anyway ("Give us each day our daily McSausage"), but unless the definition of "hallowed ground" has changed for the rest of us I don't think that idiotic argument applies (not that you yourself were making it).

Obama was foolish to get involved.

No, he was foolish to be half-assed about it. He should have owned this from the beginning. He should have threatened the developers with an IRS audit unless they re-named it the Barack Hussein Obama Cordoba House. I know, I'm a crank and a crackpot and totally unrealistic, but I ask you, I ask anyone, what other purely political or public relations act would have dealt Osama Bin Laden a deadlier blow? Are we trying to win a war against terrorists or just blow shit up real good?
 
No time. I have enough meaningless blather of my own. If I tried to keep up with all these random blogs I'd have no time to post to my own! Which no one reads. Not one follower, can you believe that? Not one.

You ought to attract Sarah Palin's attention, maybe she'll send out a Tweet and get you 92,000 instant page hits!

All knowledge must acknowledge its limits. I know only that the things I know and understand are only a tiny fragment of what there is--but wonder at the compulsion to know more. Knowledge demands more knowledge.

Well said.

Can I just call your bluff?

What you call a bluff I call prudence. :)
 
What you call a bluff I call prudence. :)

What are you afraid of?

Okay, so let's break this down. We have thousands and thousands of clear-thinking New Yorkers and many more Americans-who-are-not-New-Yorkers who understand that the 9/11 terrorists were extremists, and that they do not represent all Muslims, any more than Fred Phelps represents all Christians, and who support the construction of Cordoba House. Yet these people are not being heard. Instead, our airwaves are full of screaming radical conservatives and only a few pallid, bleating opponent voices. What do we do? Organize a march? Picket the site in support of Cordoba? I ask 'cause I'm going to be in NY in a few days with some time on my hands. I am committed to not being quiet any more.

It's interesting how impossible it is to consider action without budgeting for media reaction; how media reaction is action, in a way. If I, a quiet, nondescript, middle class white lady with no dog in this fight (except for the Niemoller bit, as quoted above) show up and quietly stand with my sign, would that attract media attention? Can a calm, rational, sane voice be heard? I know when you're trying to handle a tantruming toddler, whispers work wonders.

I'm amused by how often I revert to childcare dilemmas as a metaphor for greater issues. :rolleyes:
 
What are you afraid of?

I am afraid of being misunderstood. :tears: :nopity:

:)

Okay, so let's break this down. We have thousands and thousands of clear-thinking New Yorkers

Not really, no. Not if 60% are opposed. New York isn't just ultra-cool East Villagers, you know. Ever read much in the New York Post? The New York Daily News? They've got loads of fans for a reason, and it ain't just Page Six.

and many more Americans-who-are-not-New-Yorkers who understand that the 9/11 terrorists were extremists, and that they do not represent all Muslims

Strongly, strongly doubt this.

What do we do? Organize a march?

c. Other

Can a calm, rational, sane voice be heard?

What-- you mean a socialist?

(No.)

I know when you're trying to handle a tantruming toddler, whispers work wonders.

I'm amused by how often I revert to childcare dilemmas as a metaphor for greater issues. :rolleyes:

You and Robert Fulghum. :rolleyes:
 
Not when there's a f***ing Burger King across the street. I know that recent poll data suggests 87% of Americans would just love a Burger King, McDonald's, or Dairy Queen re-located inside their local church, since God has become fast food anyway ("Give us each day our daily McSausage"), but unless the definition of "hallowed ground" has changed for the rest of us I don't think that idiotic argument applies (not that you yourself were making it).

Actually, I was just reading about a possible "sacred place" designation for Ground Zero, like the ones we accord Civil War battlefields. This would kick in certain zoning prohibitions. Of course, there is going to be a great, big tower in the middle of the graveyard, and there will be businesses there, too, so this is basically just political posturing.

The point is that the proposed Cordoba House site is not on sacred ground, and it never will be. That much should be obvious. Lower Manhattan carries with it the scars of a terrible event, but it will never be closed to development, not until it's under water.


No, he was foolish to be half-assed about it. He should have owned this from the beginning. He should have threatened the developers with an IRS audit unless they re-named it the Barack Hussein Obama Cordoba House. I know, I'm a crank and a crackpot and totally unrealistic, but I ask you, I ask anyone, what other purely political or public relations act would have dealt Osama Bin Laden a deadlier blow? Are we trying to win a war against terrorists or just blow shit up real good?

I'm not so sure that's true. He's dealing with matches and dry kindling - Obama knows that. He made a pretty common-sense statement at a function to mark the beginning of Ramadan - the statement wasn't outrageous at all, but the setting was just adding fuel to the fire. Look how many people think he's muslim, or a socialist, or the anti-christ. He has to be very, very careful.

I agree, the best defense of American values would be to repudiate the hate, but there is hate here, and it must be dealt with realistically. I think it's time for a presser, with religious leaders speaking out about what makes American freedoms real, important values that inform our everyday lives, and not just an excuse to drop bombs on people in far-off places.
 
I am afraid of being misunderstood. :tears: :nopity:

:)

Why? What's the worst thing that can happen? Some people on the internet think you're a crackpot?

Not really, no. Not if 60% are opposed. New York isn't just ultra-cool East Villagers, you know. Ever read much in the New York Post? The New York Daily News? They've got loads of fans for a reason, and it ain't just Page Six.

60% by whose measure? Didn't we just get done doubting the validity of the poll?

Strongly, strongly doubt this.

I said "many more," I didn't say it was a majority. I'm not that naive.


And that is... what?

What-- you mean a socialist?

(No.)

What if I rent a sexy pirate costume to wear? Then will I make the news? Or will I merely be mistaken for a representative for the Long John Silver's franchise that's set to open next door?

You and Robert Fulghum. :rolleyes:

Don't roll your eyes at me, young man.
 
I'm not so sure that's true. He's dealing with matches and dry kindling - Obama knows that. He made a pretty common-sense statement at a function to mark the beginning of Ramadan - the statement wasn't outrageous at all, but the setting was just adding fuel to the fire. Look how many people think he's muslim, or a socialist, or the anti-christ. He has to be very, very careful.

I remain astonished that the White House cannot find anyone with the PR savvy to start cleaning this up.
 
not until it's under water.

So you're saying Giuliani's "American Waterboarding Adventure" theme park can finally be built in, what, about 2023? 2024? :)

I'm not so sure that's true. He's dealing with matches and dry kindling - Obama knows that.

I understand you're saying Obama, like all politicians, has to be aware of what is politically possible, as well as what is best for the country.

But I think your metaphor of matches and dry kindling is telling. We talk about how things are going to "blow up" or "backfire" on Democrats if they step out of line, but we tend to forget that these issues are powderkegs in the first place because of aggressive disinformation and propaganda campaigns waged by the right.

The controversy over Cordoba House was 100% manufactured. It was phony. It was fake outrage over a non-issue. Yes, now it has ballooned beyond Sarah Palin's Twitter account and it's an unavoidable political problem for Obama because now "real Americans" are concerned. But it might not have been so had he shown some backbone and pre-emptively fought the lies from the get-go, perhaps by doing exactly what you suggested (a press conference is a nice start, but more would be needed). As soon as Palin and Gingrich opened their dumbass mouths he should have been all over this.

The "powderkeg" caveat is, in almost all cases, illusory (would single payer health care have been a "massive controversy" if the left had just called it "Medicare For All" from the beginning?). The other side knows this and exploits it to full effect. They know Obama and the Democrats will, as always, act too late and too weakly. Democrats pretend governing the nation is like walking a minefield-- "there are mines in the field, it's reality, it's a fact of life, there's nothing we can do!"-- when, at the same time, there are Republicans walking around laying landmines, gleefully and in plain sight. Laughable.

If Sarah Palin Tweeted that Barack Obama was an alien from Jupiter who wanted to call down an invading army of man-eating space-slugs, half of America would instantly believe it, forcing the Democrats to tip-toe around the issue because the "high passion" surrounding man-eating space-slugs makes it "too controversial" to handle.

Obama (Thursday): "I would like to state that at no time have I been an alien invader, and I believe we should focus on real issues that affect real people".

Obama (Friday): "I want to make clear to the American people that I did not mean to assert that we face dangers from all of outer space. I was speaking specifically to the issue of invaders from Jupiter with respect to my administration, which, after careful consulting with the best minds we have, has never condoned ray guns."

Harry Reid: "Look, the American people are rightly afraid of their nation being invaded by aliens, so we want to listen to what they're saying out there on Main Street".

Howard Dean: "The far right is wrong on this issue, as always, but we need to start a productive dialogue here, we can't address the vital issue of space invaders unless we stop shouting at each other".

Nancy Pelosi: "The American people want us to consider the facts of the case carefully so we can make the best possible judgment about possible invasions from space. And, listen, I think when all is said and done, we're going to put this invasion theory to rest and get on with leading the country".

You know it's true.

I agree, the best defense of American values would be to repudiate the hate, but there is hate here, and it must be dealt with realistically. I think it's time for a presser, with religious leaders speaking out about what makes American freedoms real, important values that inform our everyday lives, and not just an excuse to drop bombs on people in far-off places.

That's right. Not just repudiate hatred but embrace love. Now you're cooking with gas.
 
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Why? What's the worst thing that can happen? Some people on the internet think you're a crackpot?

They already think I'm a crackpot. I'm not worried about that.

60% by whose measure? Didn't we just get done doubting the validity of the poll?

I was speaking to broader political persuasions. New Yorkers' political views aren't monolithic by any stretch, that's all. The poll is bullshit but I'd imagine that on most questions New York would be substantially divided, though with a much higher number of sane people on both sides. :)

I said "many more," I didn't say it was a majority.

Strongly, strongly doubt this. :lbf:

And that is... what?

How much time do you have?

What if I rent a sexy pirate costume to wear? Then will I make the news? Or will I merely be mistaken for a representative for the Long John Silver's franchise that's set to open next door?

You'll be a hero. Just be aware that Newt Gingrich is going to single you out as the emerging socialist pirate menace casting a shadow over the American homeland. You're going to be blamed for lack of border control and the threat of sharia law on American soil. That's the sort of p.r. you can do without.

Maybe for something to be effective it can't be on TV. Or online.

Don't roll your eyes at me, young man.

Who, me? Never!
 
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I was speaking to broader political persuasions. New Yorkers' political views aren't monolithic by any stretch, that's all. The poll is bullshit but I'd imagine that on most questions New York would be substantially divided, though with a much higher number of sane people on both sides. :)

You know what could happen? The organization that wants to build the center could hold some meet-and-greets with congregations of other faiths, some potlucks, and they could exchange tips on how to keep kids off the streets. Then they issue a big statement about how they're promoting family togetherness and giving young singles a place to have a home away from home blah blah blah. They also have to go out on a limb and state how they condemn the destructive violence of 9/11, and possibly make some form of in-kind donation to a charity for 9/11-affected kids.

Thus mollified, the opposing forces will begin to simmer down, construction will begin, and by the time it opens everyone will have forgotten about it. The last point is the most salient: as soon as some new "issue" comes to the fore, everyone has forgotten. This is flavor of the weak (sic) stuff.

How much time do you have?

I have until I die. After that, I'm not sure what my schedule's gonna be like.

Maybe for something to be effective it can't be on TV. Or online.

But how would anyone know?
 
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You know what could happen? The organization that wants to build the center could hold some meet-and-greets with congregations of other faiths, some potlucks, and they could exchange tips on how to keep kids off the streets. Then they issue a big statement about how they're promoting family togetherness and giving young singles a place to have a home away from home blah blah blah. They also have to go out on a limb and state how they condemn the destructive violence of 9/11, and possibly make some form of in-kind donation to a charity for 9/11-affected kids.

Thus mollified, the opposing forces will begin to simmer down, construction will begin, and by the time it opens everyone will have forgotten about it. This is how it's done around here. The last point is the most salient: as soon as some new "issue" comes to the fore, everyone has forgotten. This is flavor of the weak (sic) stuff.

Great ideas, but in my view you're not addressing the real point here, which is that the opposing forces are exploiting the community center to win favor with their base and possibly attract a few new converts. You seem to be under the impression that they will listen to reason. They won't. The actual facts about this case are unimportant.

As an easy example to look at, you only need to see how Imam Rauf has been demonized as an extremist to understand how the nutcase right is cherrypicking facts. Rauf is a guy both Bush and Obama have sent overseas as a moderate representative of Muslim-Americans, in the hopes of promoting peace and goodwill, but many don't know that because right-wingers are lying and the Democrats haven't got the balls to say so.

Put a different way, using your sound, reasonable approach, we might say something like, "We could win support for the project if we could show the other side that the center was headed by a moderate Muslim, a proud American, with a history of trying to bring Islam and America together into a peaceful future". But that's exactly what we have now and it doesn't matter a bit.

I have until I die. After that, I'm not sure what my schedule's gonna be like.

:lbf:

But how would anyone know?

Why would anyone need to know?
 
Put a different way, using your sound, reasonable approach, we might say something like, "We could win support for the project if we could show the other side that the center was headed by a moderate Muslim, a proud American, with a history of trying to bring Islam and America together into a peaceful future". But that's exactly what we have now and it doesn't matter a bit.

So what we have is the equivalent of the old rhetorical stumper, "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

I still stand by my original idea. Ordinary, moderate folks who have no stake in the battle whatsoever (except the overarching idea that censorship is like a slime mold) need to stand up and say, "Hey, I looked at the facts. I did my own research. There's nothing wrong with this community center, and no reason to ban it." People who are perceived as having a stake in the issue will not be believed. We need to stand up and fight for our neighbors, lest we be the next to be challenged. And, better yet, we need to point to whatever's behind the next green curtain. There is bound to be a more pressing issue somewhere on the island of Manhattan that isn't getting attention because this is. Exploit the taste for the latest and greatest.

You want to sit back and allude to your knowledge of a better plan--if you do that, you have no voice. You have a vote, and you know how worthless that is.

Why would anyone need to know?

So they could learn from it and use similar tactics on a different issue?
 
So what we have is the equivalent of the old rhetorical stumper, "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

I still stand by my original idea. Ordinary, moderate folks who have no stake in the battle whatsoever (except the overarching idea that censorship is like a slime mold) need to stand up and say, "Hey, I looked at the facts. I did my own research. There's nothing wrong with this community center, and no reason to ban it." People who are perceived as having a stake in the issue will not be believed. We need to stand up and fight for our neighbors, lest we be the next to be challenged. And, better yet, we need to point to whatever's behind the next green curtain. There is bound to be a more pressing issue somewhere on the island of Manhattan that isn't getting attention because this is. Exploit the taste for the latest and greatest.

You want to sit back and allude to your knowledge of a better plan--if you do that, you have no voice. You have a vote, and you know how worthless that is.

Nobody cares about voices. Seriously. Nobody cares, nobody listens. Gotta be something else. We all have voice-fatigue.

So they could learn from it and use similar tactics on a different issue?

Oh, well, yeah, I mean, there are tactics to be learned, for sure. Absolutely. After the fact. :rolleyes:
 
That's why I suggested the pirate costume. Nobody ever gets tired of tits. :rolleyes:

I hope you're right. People may stop listening to me otherwise. :)

There was a story yesterday about two French girls who robbed a man at an ATM. They tried to distract him with a newspaper at first. It didn't work. So one of them flashed her chest and, voila, they got away with 300 Euros. :squiffy:
 
There was a story yesterday about two French girls who robbed a man at an ATM. They tried to distract him with a newspaper at first. It didn't work. So one of them flashed her chest and, voila, they got away with 300 Euros. :squiffy:

How much is that in dollars?


Never mind, I am not a teenaged French girl. It would simply never work.

Ok, and wait, how was a newspaper supposed to distract him? Nobody pays attention to the newspaper anymore. :D
 
The data is more complicated than it seems because there is a large portion of respondents who said that they do not support the community center and believe it has a right to be built. Additionally, I've read there is a split between Manhattan and outer boroughs like Staten Island.

Regardless, at this point in time there isn't a poll anyone should fully trust because of the stunning amount of lies and distortions swirling around the topic. A New Yorker's opinion might be trusted over someone else's

Which New Yorker, though? Regardless of all the media hoodoo and tomfoolery you seem to recognize that there is not an easily identifiable opinion on the subject that is held by all New Yorkers, and that is the way you were portraying it. It's ironic that you talk about distortions.

T
But as I said I can't see how opinion polls matter anymore. I will trust opinion polls where each person can answer a batch of basic questions correctly before answering the primary questions. Nobody should care if a person opposes the Park51 project if the same person thinks that (say) Obama is a Muslim.

As long as you're not an elitist. I recognize that it's unfortunate that people that disagree with you get to vote, but maybe if Obama keeps leading us towards fascism that little problem will be solved.
 
So, during another day spent chatting with various New Yorkers, the issue of Cordoba House came up a few times. Once again, not a single person I talked to cared. As a matter of fact, one guy pointed out that it was a Sufi organization, and he said that he'd appreciate such a community downtown. This fella was raised Protestant.

So, 100% percent of the people I have talked to about this don't think that Cordoba House is an issue. This doesn't jibe with what the media is telling us.

I asked the guy who was Pro-Cordoba what he made of this strange fact, and he mentioned that he saw a poll that said nearly three-quarters of Manhattanites have no problem with the Community Center being built two blocks from GZ. I don't know where he got those poll numbers, but it would appear that the closer you get to GZ, the less of an issue this is.

That really says something.
 
If Sarah Palin Tweeted that Barack Obama was an alien from Jupiter who wanted to call down an invading army of man-eating space-slugs, half of America would instantly believe it, forcing the Democrats to tip-toe around the issue because the "high passion" surrounding man-eating space-slugs makes it "too controversial" to handle.

Obama (Thursday): "I would like to state that at no time have I been an alien invader, and I believe we should focus on real issues that affect real people".

Obama (Friday): "I want to make clear to the American people that I did not mean to assert that we face dangers from all of outer space. I was speaking specifically to the issue of invaders from Jupiter with respect to my administration, which, after careful consulting with the best minds we have, has never condoned ray guns."

Harry Reid: "Look, the American people are rightly afraid of their nation being invaded by aliens, so we want to listen to what they're saying out there on Main Street".

Howard Dean: "The far right is wrong on this issue, as always, but we need to start a productive dialogue here, we can't address the vital issue of space invaders unless we stop shouting at each other".

Nancy Pelosi: "The American people want us to consider the facts of the case carefully so we can make the best possible judgment about possible invasions from space. And, listen, I think when all is said and done, we're going to put this invasion theory to rest and get on with leading the country".

You know it's true.

:lbf:

Yes, I do know this is true. It drives me nuts.

Down in Florida a GOP candidate attacked Democrat Alan Grayson, saying that because Grayson missed a vote on military funding he knowingly put the troops at risk "and wants them to die."

Grayson responded that his potential opponent (Kurt Kelly) was in a primary with other GOP candidates, and that Kelly realized that "the stupider he sounds, the more votes he's likely to get." He then went on to give a more nuanced answer.

Zing!
 
I don't know where he got those poll numbers, but it would appear that the closer you get to GZ, the less of an issue this is.

That really says something.

It does. It's a great illustration of how fictions (such as "death panels") are created and used to manipulate people. The right has created a false issue to use to rally people to its cause. Created a "threat," pumped it up to huge proportions, then used it to show how bad/dangerous/Un-American the left is. It's just so distressing that the usual rhetorical tactic of poking a hole in that inflated fiction doesn't seem to be working; you cross this issue with the study (goinghome?) cited about corrections to news stories only reinforcing incorrect beliefs, and we have no control over these lies and no good way of clearing them up.

Anesthesine, do you know when the Cordoba decision will actually be made, and by whom? City council? Would that be just a Manhattan issue, or do the boroughs' reps get to weigh in?

Grayson responded that his potential opponent (Kurt Kelly) was in a primary with other GOP candidates, and that Kelly realized that "the stupider he sounds, the more votes he's likely to get." He then went on to give a more nuanced answer.

Zing!

I love how more and more often, the ungrammatical "stupider" is exactly the right word for the occasion.
 
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