"Was There No One to Stop Morrissey From Publishing List of the Lost?" - John Niven of the New State

I agree that there is no real way to edit this manuscript as it stands. Certainly not to transform it from the critical kicking piece it is now into something that would have got good reviews.
 
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Ugh, I wonder how Morrissey is reacting to all this criticism. I suppose Penguin will just fire him (or break the contract, whatever). Looks like this book will at best become a "trash" classic.
 
Anonymous said:
Ugh, I wonder how Morrissey is reacting to all this criticism. I suppose Penguin will just fire him (or break the contract, whatever). Looks like this book will at best become a "trash" classic.
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Why will Penguin fire him? They knew they were getting crap, but they also knew it would shift a lot of copies. It's grubby, but they've gone for the financial rewards, and will take any criticism on the chin. Unless they paid Moz some huge advance, I'm sure 'List of the Lost' will have been a nice little earner for them.
 
Anonymous said:
Why will Penguin fire him? They knew they were getting crap, but they also knew it would shift a lot of copies. It's grubby, but they've gone for the financial rewards, and will take any criticism on the chin. Unless they paid Moz some huge advance, I'm sure 'List of the Lost' will have been a nice little earner for them.
Click to expand...

yeah i think this true. same with moz, i dont think he thought the casual reader was gonna jump on this like harry potter though of course he would welcome being number one like almost anyone would. i doubt they paid him a huge advance for a work of fiction unlike with his life story which would be a draw and seller despite how it was written
 
Let's be honest, any sense he had of quality control went out the door years back.

As critics and posts here have pointed out part of it is not having an 'equal' around who could say "well hang on a minute, this lyric isn't really very good, can you come up with something better?"

I read the lyrics to "kiss me a lot" and "I'm not a man" to my girlfriend in a restaurant and she laughed out loud (at how bad they were, much like the critics of the novel), and said she couldn't believe it was the same person who wrote the poetic Smiths lyrics. And of course it's not the same man. For the other part of the problem is being a famous, multimillionaire who begins to believe in his infallibility. He likely believes the material he writes now is genuine high quality art (listing his latest albums as his "best" over the Smiths albums, or Viva Hate or Vauxhal and I, is at best deluded). Some of the lyrics on his solo albums have been not just bad by his standards but bad by anyone's standards. Kiss me a lot, people are the same everywhere, are probably lyrically some of the worst songs EVER written by ANYONE. I heard the latest Taylor Swift song the other day on the radio (in a store) and bad though it was, it's lyrically on a par with some of Morrissey's latest work (maybe he wrote them for spare cash?) He's got caught up in believing his own myth.

And surrounding yourself with untalented yes men, isn't going to help matters. If he was still song writing with Johnny Marr or Stephen Street, I suspect they would have enough power and respect in the relationship to point out glaringly bad writing. But would probably end up once again in the out-tray, so he could find people who just tell him it's all great. The end result is though sadly he's very much left a legacy of more bad than good writing. Of course the good work, is very very good.

I bet the reaction to the novel was a surprise to him. A few bad reviews I guess he could pass off as 'just the critics against me again" but unanimous, scathing reviews is something else surely? It's embarrassing that people actually let him release it isn't it, and a bit sad? There really was no one around to simply say: NO. Also no one to stop him doing things such as the whole "f*** Harvest" aftermath. No, a record company wouldn't give him a deal after that. It's a bit out of touch too, to think another record company would come along and pick him up after acting this way. I think that was probably the end of his chance of further industry involvement in his career.

I have a feeling he thought he was going to transition into being a serious writer. So having it best described as a 'trash classic' must be a letdown. But the writing decline began long again, and with no one to tell him, it's kind of a natural outcome.

I find the bitterness at past collaborators pretty awful too. Where would he honestly be if Marr hadn't knocked on the door? (I think Marr would have been a famous musician anyway, but Morrissey...?) If Street hasn't concocted a winning opening solo salvo, if Alain Whyte hadn't salvaged the whole mess in the 90s? Really, left to his own talent and devices, he's struggled artistically.

Fame, fortune, declining artistic ability, bitterness, paranoia, megalomania... it would make a good novel wouldnt it?
 
Anonymous said:
Let's be honest, any sense he had of quality control went out the door years back.

As critics and posts here have pointed out part of it is not having an 'equal' around who could say "well hang on a minute, this lyric isn't really very good, can you come up with something better?"

I read the lyrics to "kiss me a lot" and "I'm not a man" to my girlfriend in a restaurant and she laughed out loud (at how bad they were, much like the critics of the novel), and said she couldn't believe it was the same person who wrote the poetic Smiths lyrics. And of course it's not the same man. For the other part of the problem is being a famous, multimillionaire who begins to believe in his infallibility. He likely believes the material he writes now is genuine high quality art (listing his latest albums as his "best" over the Smiths albums, or Viva Hate or Vauxhal and I, is at best deluded). Some of the lyrics on his solo albums have been not just bad by his standards but bad by anyone's standards. Kiss me a lot, people are the same everywhere, are probably lyrically some of the worst songs EVER written by ANYONE. I heard the latest Taylor Swift song the other day on the radio (in a store) and bad though it was, it's lyrically on a par with some of Morrissey's latest work (maybe he wrote them for spare cash?) He's got caught up in believing his own myth.

And surrounding yourself with untalented yes men, isn't going to help matters. If he was still song writing with Johnny Marr or Stephen Street, I suspect they would have enough power and respect in the relationship to point out glaringly bad writing. But would probably end up once again in the out-tray, so he could find people who just tell him it's all great. The end result is though sadly he's very much left a legacy of more bad than good writing. Of course the good work, is very very good.

I bet the reaction to the novel was a surprise to him. A few bad reviews I guess he could pass off as 'just the critics against me again" but unanimous, scathing reviews is something else surely? It's embarrassing that people actually let him release it isn't it, and a bit sad? There really was no one around to simply say: NO. Also no one to stop him doing things such as the whole "f*** Harvest" aftermath. No, a record company wouldn't give him a deal after that. It's a bit out of touch too, to think another record company would come along and pick him up after acting this way. I think that was probably the end of his chance of further industry involvement in his career.

I have a feeling he thought he was going to transition into being a serious writer. So having it best described as a 'trash classic' must be a letdown. But the writing decline began long again, and with no one to tell him, it's kind of a natural outcome.

I find the bitterness at past collaborators pretty awful too. Where would he honestly be if Marr hadn't knocked on the door? (I think Marr would have been a famous musician anyway, but Morrissey...?) If Street hasn't concocted a winning opening solo salvo, if Alain Whyte hadn't salvaged the whole mess in the 90s? Really, left to his own talent and devices, he's struggled artistically.

Fame, fortune, declining artistic ability, bitterness, paranoia, megalomania... it would make a good novel wouldnt it?
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honestly i dont agree. i liked the fun playfulness of kiss me a lots lyrics with the chasteness contrasting by the winking naughtiness in the same line as well the the hepburn connection as well as the possible connection to her movies but i like movies hers especially. im also not trying to convince you to change your opinion
 
financial rewards? which one exactly. a week after release the book is at 216 which means they taken quite the financial hit on this, more so if they gave moz a hefty advance.
i doubt it sold more than a couple thousand copies.
 
Anonymous said:
financial rewards? which one exactly. a week after release the book is at 216 which means they taken quite the financial hit on this, more so if they gave moz a hefty advance.
i doubt it sold more than a couple thousand copies.
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i dont think they gave a big advance for this but like another said he probably had at least a two book deal at the start of auto which probably did have a modest advance and ive no doubt they made there money back there and this will sell some copies especially in the loner run as new people that get into him in the future will still buy it just for that. well see but theyll still make money ive no doubt even if it takes longer to sell off the stock they have now. its not like its gonna spoil like food and they have the space cost relatively cost free
 
Anonymous said:
financial rewards? which one exactly. a week after release the book is at 216 which means they taken quite the financial hit on this, more so if they gave moz a hefty advance.
i doubt it sold more than a couple thousand copies.
Click to expand...

Unless the advance was really silly they're not going to lose money. About 3,500 books are released each week in the UK, so think about it. If only blockbusters actually made money for the publishers they wouldn't do it.
 
Anonymous said:
Let's be honest, any sense he had of quality control went out the door years back.

......

Fame, fortune, declining artistic ability, bitterness, paranoia, megalomania... it would make a good novel wouldnt it?
Click to expand...

Why don't you get started on that novel then and see what kind of critical reception you get? How about some song lyrics too while you are at it?

Yes his novel sucked - I actually read it sorry to say - but you people here are a bunch of whiners.
 
Anonymous said:
Let's be honest, any sense he had of quality control went out the door years back.

As critics and posts here have pointed out part of it is not having an 'equal' around who could say "well hang on a minute, this lyric isn't really very good, can you come up with something better?"

I read the lyrics to "kiss me a lot" and "I'm not a man" to my girlfriend in a restaurant and she laughed out loud (at how bad they were, much like the critics of the novel), and said she couldn't believe it was the same person who wrote the poetic Smiths lyrics. And of course it's not the same man. For the other part of the problem is being a famous, multimillionaire who begins to believe in his infallibility. He likely believes the material he writes now is genuine high quality art (listing his latest albums as his "best" over the Smiths albums, or Viva Hate or Vauxhal and I, is at best deluded). Some of the lyrics on his solo albums have been not just bad by his standards but bad by anyone's standards. Kiss me a lot, people are the same everywhere, are probably lyrically some of the worst songs EVER written by ANYONE. I heard the latest Taylor Swift song the other day on the radio (in a store) and bad though it was, it's lyrically on a par with some of Morrissey's latest work (maybe he wrote them for spare cash?) He's got caught up in believing his own myth.

And surrounding yourself with untalented yes men, isn't going to help matters. If he was still song writing with Johnny Marr or Stephen Street, I suspect they would have enough power and respect in the relationship to point out glaringly bad writing. But would probably end up once again in the out-tray, so he could find people who just tell him it's all great. The end result is though sadly he's very much left a legacy of more bad than good writing. Of course the good work, is very very good.

I bet the reaction to the novel was a surprise to him. A few bad reviews I guess he could pass off as 'just the critics against me again" but unanimous, scathing reviews is something else surely? It's embarrassing that people actually let him release it isn't it, and a bit sad? There really was no one around to simply say: NO. Also no one to stop him doing things such as the whole "f*** Harvest" aftermath. No, a record company wouldn't give him a deal after that. It's a bit out of touch too, to think another record company would come along and pick him up after acting this way. I think that was probably the end of his chance of further industry involvement in his career.

I have a feeling he thought he was going to transition into being a serious writer. So having it best described as a 'trash classic' must be a letdown. But the writing decline began long again, and with no one to tell him, it's kind of a natural outcome.

I find the bitterness at past collaborators pretty awful too. Where would he honestly be if Marr hadn't knocked on the door? (I think Marr would have been a famous musician anyway, but Morrissey...?) If Street hasn't concocted a winning opening solo salvo, if Alain Whyte hadn't salvaged the whole mess in the 90s? Really, left to his own talent and devices, he's struggled artistically.

Fame, fortune, declining artistic ability, bitterness, paranoia, megalomania... it would make a good novel wouldnt it?
Click to expand...

This is such a bitter sounding post and have given too much thought to Morrissey. GROWN men fling themselves on stage to shake his hand, they love him without question
I would much prefer spending a evening with Morrissey then anyone else.
 
AgathaC said:
This is such a bitter sounding post and have given too much thought to Morrissey. GROWN men fling themselves on stage to shake his hand, they love him without question
I would much prefer spending a evening with Morrissey then anyone else.
Click to expand...

anyone here no doubt. as to collaborators they all seem like nice competent people but none have achieved the level of success hes had both in sales and in artistry without him. street is a cool guy whos produced some good stuff but he hasnt written anything else that compares to my knowledge and same with alain. marr has made some good records but nothing that compares to morrisseys solo stuff imo. i like a lot of electronic, though i find it hit or miss, but i put a lot of that down to sumner though i dont know for sure but it sounds more like his work more so than anything marr did in the smiths or anywhere else. same with the the who isnt bad but im not a big fan of and same with modest mouse etc. the healers is better left unmentioned. the messenger was good and the first thing i thought was really solid and representative of marrs talents alone but hes not a singer i dont think which isnt his fault but didnt always make the best of the music. most wished it had morrissey singing over it
 
Anonymous said:
Let's be honest, any sense he had of quality control went out the door years back.

As critics and posts here have pointed out part of it is not having an 'equal' around who could say "well hang on a minute, this lyric isn't really very good, can you come up with something better?"

I read the lyrics to "kiss me a lot" and "I'm not a man" to my girlfriend in a restaurant and she laughed out loud (at how bad they were, much like the critics of the novel), and said she couldn't believe it was the same person who wrote the poetic Smiths lyrics. And of course it's not the same man. For the other part of the problem is being a famous, multimillionaire who begins to believe in his infallibility. He likely believes the material he writes now is genuine high quality art (listing his latest albums as his "best" over the Smiths albums, or Viva Hate or Vauxhal and I, is at best deluded). Some of the lyrics on his solo albums have been not just bad by his standards but bad by anyone's standards. Kiss me a lot, people are the same everywhere, are probably lyrically some of the worst songs EVER written by ANYONE. I heard the latest Taylor Swift song the other day on the radio (in a store) and bad though it was, it's lyrically on a par with some of Morrissey's latest work (maybe he wrote them for spare cash?) He's got caught up in believing his own myth.

And surrounding yourself with untalented yes men, isn't going to help matters. If he was still song writing with Johnny Marr or Stephen Street, I suspect they would have enough power and respect in the relationship to point out glaringly bad writing. But would probably end up once again in the out-tray, so he could find people who just tell him it's all great. The end result is though sadly he's very much left a legacy of more bad than good writing. Of course the good work, is very very good.

I bet the reaction to the novel was a surprise to him. A few bad reviews I guess he could pass off as 'just the critics against me again" but unanimous, scathing reviews is something else surely? It's embarrassing that people actually let him release it isn't it, and a bit sad? There really was no one around to simply say: NO. Also no one to stop him doing things such as the whole "f*** Harvest" aftermath. No, a record company wouldn't give him a deal after that. It's a bit out of touch too, to think another record company would come along and pick him up after acting this way. I think that was probably the end of his chance of further industry involvement in his career.

I have a feeling he thought he was going to transition into being a serious writer. So having it best described as a 'trash classic' must be a letdown. But the writing decline began long again, and with no one to tell him, it's kind of a natural outcome.

I find the bitterness at past collaborators pretty awful too. Where would he honestly be if Marr hadn't knocked on the door? (I think Marr would have been a famous musician anyway, but Morrissey...?) If Street hasn't concocted a winning opening solo salvo, if Alain Whyte hadn't salvaged the whole mess in the 90s? Really, left to his own talent and devices, he's struggled artistically.

Fame, fortune, declining artistic ability, bitterness, paranoia, megalomania... it would make a good novel wouldnt it?
Click to expand...

Why would anyone be 'reading' Morrissey lyrics to their GF in a restaurant?

This by Paul Lekakis (or whoever to was behind Paul Lekakis) would have to top anything Moz has done: 'Boom boom boom let's go back to my room so we can do it all night and you can make me feel right.'

Granted though that the video for 'Kiss Me A Lot' would probably work well with this song.
 
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Anonymous said:
Let's be honest, any sense he had of quality control went out the door years back.

As critics and posts here have pointed out part of it is not having an 'equal' around who could say "well hang on a minute, this lyric isn't really very good, can you come up with something better?"

I read the lyrics to "kiss me a lot" and "I'm not a man" to my girlfriend in a restaurant and she laughed out loud (at how bad they were, much like the critics of the novel), and said she couldn't believe it was the same person who wrote the poetic Smiths lyrics. And of course it's not the same man. For the other part of the problem is being a famous, multimillionaire who begins to believe in his infallibility. He likely believes the material he writes now is genuine high quality art (listing his latest albums as his "best" over the Smiths albums, or Viva Hate or Vauxhal and I, is at best deluded). Some of the lyrics on his solo albums have been not just bad by his standards but bad by anyone's standards. Kiss me a lot, people are the same everywhere, are probably lyrically some of the worst songs EVER written by ANYONE. I heard the latest Taylor Swift song the other day on the radio (in a store) and bad though it was, it's lyrically on a par with some of Morrissey's latest work (maybe he wrote them for spare cash?) He's got caught up in believing his own myth.

And surrounding yourself with untalented yes men, isn't going to help matters. If he was still song writing with Johnny Marr or Stephen Street, I suspect they would have enough power and respect in the relationship to point out glaringly bad writing. But would probably end up once again in the out-tray, so he could find people who just tell him it's all great. The end result is though sadly he's very much left a legacy of more bad than good writing. Of course the good work, is very very good.

I bet the reaction to the novel was a surprise to him. A few bad reviews I guess he could pass off as 'just the critics against me again" but unanimous, scathing reviews is something else surely? It's embarrassing that people actually let him release it isn't it, and a bit sad? There really was no one around to simply say: NO. Also no one to stop him doing things such as the whole "f*** Harvest" aftermath. No, a record company wouldn't give him a deal after that. It's a bit out of touch too, to think another record company would come along and pick him up after acting this way. I think that was probably the end of his chance of further industry involvement in his career.

I have a feeling he thought he was going to transition into being a serious writer. So having it best described as a 'trash classic' must be a letdown. But the writing decline began long again, and with no one to tell him, it's kind of a natural outcome.

I find the bitterness at past collaborators pretty awful too. Where would he honestly be if Marr hadn't knocked on the door? (I think Marr would have been a famous musician anyway, but Morrissey...?) If Street hasn't concocted a winning opening solo salvo, if Alain Whyte hadn't salvaged the whole mess in the 90s? Really, left to his own talent and devices, he's struggled artistically.

Fame, fortune, declining artistic ability, bitterness, paranoia, megalomania... it would make a good novel wouldnt it?
Click to expand...

Spot on !
Its been another "annus horribilis" for Steven and I can't see things improving in the new year when Johnny Marrs autobiography hits the shelves.
There's going to be a free copy of list of the lost with every 4ck Johnny Marr t-shirt @'the online Moz trash shop in the new year. L O L !

Benny-the-British-Butcher
 
Anonymous said:
anyone here no doubt. as to collaborators they all seem like nice competent people but none have achieved the level of success hes had both in sales and in artistry without him. street is a cool guy whos produced some good stuff but he hasnt written anything else that compares to my knowledge and same with alain. marr has made some good records but nothing that compares to morrisseys solo stuff imo. i like a lot of electronic, though i find it hit or miss, but i put a lot of that down to sumner though i dont know for sure but it sounds more like his work more so than anything marr did in the smiths or anywhere else. same with the the who isnt bad but im not a big fan of and same with modest mouse etc. the healers is better left unmentioned. the messenger was good and the first thing i thought was really solid and representative of marrs talents alone but hes not a singer i dont think which isnt his fault but didnt always make the best of the music. most wished it had morrissey singing over it
Click to expand...

You are spot on!
 
moz is not just anyone. he is infamous for doing nothing unless he gets paid a hefty advance up front.
i think it a given that penguin took a pretty good hit on list of the lost.
 
Anonymous said:
Let's be honest, any sense he had of quality control went out the door years back.

As critics and posts here have pointed out part of it is not having an 'equal' around who could say "well hang on a minute, this lyric isn't really very good, can you come up with something better?"

I read the lyrics to "kiss me a lot" and "I'm not a man" to my girlfriend in a restaurant and she laughed out loud (at how bad they were, much like the critics of the novel), and said she couldn't believe it was the same person who wrote the poetic Smiths lyrics. And of course it's not the same man. For the other part of the problem is being a famous, multimillionaire who begins to believe in his infallibility. He likely believes the material he writes now is genuine high quality art (listing his latest albums as his "best" over the Smiths albums, or Viva Hate or Vauxhal and I, is at best deluded). Some of the lyrics on his solo albums have been not just bad by his standards but bad by anyone's standards. Kiss me a lot, people are the same everywhere, are probably lyrically some of the worst songs EVER written by ANYONE. I heard the latest Taylor Swift song the other day on the radio (in a store) and bad though it was, it's lyrically on a par with some of Morrissey's latest work (maybe he wrote them for spare cash?) He's got caught up in believing his own myth.

And surrounding yourself with untalented yes men, isn't going to help matters. If he was still song writing with Johnny Marr or Stephen Street, I suspect they would have enough power and respect in the relationship to point out glaringly bad writing. But would probably end up once again in the out-tray, so he could find people who just tell him it's all great. The end result is though sadly he's very much left a legacy of more bad than good writing. Of course the good work, is very very good.

I bet the reaction to the novel was a surprise to him. A few bad reviews I guess he could pass off as 'just the critics against me again" but unanimous, scathing reviews is something else surely? It's embarrassing that people actually let him release it isn't it, and a bit sad? There really was no one around to simply say: NO. Also no one to stop him doing things such as the whole "f*** Harvest" aftermath. No, a record company wouldn't give him a deal after that. It's a bit out of touch too, to think another record company would come along and pick him up after acting this way. I think that was probably the end of his chance of further industry involvement in his career.

I have a feeling he thought he was going to transition into being a serious writer. So having it best described as a 'trash classic' must be a letdown. But the writing decline began long again, and with no one to tell him, it's kind of a natural outcome.

I find the bitterness at past collaborators pretty awful too. Where would he honestly be if Marr hadn't knocked on the door? (I think Marr would have been a famous musician anyway, but Morrissey...?) If Street hasn't concocted a winning opening solo salvo, if Alain Whyte hadn't salvaged the whole mess in the 90s? Really, left to his own talent and devices, he's struggled artistically.

Fame, fortune, declining artistic ability, bitterness, paranoia, megalomania... it would make a good novel wouldnt it?
Click to expand...

spot on!
 
Anonymous said:
moz is not just anyone. he is infamous for doing nothing unless he gets paid a hefty advance up front.
i think it a given that penguin took a pretty good hit on list of the lost.
Click to expand...

what were his previuous advances
 
Was There No One to Stop John Niven From Publishing "Was There No One to Stop Morrissey From Publishing List of the Lost?"
 
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