Has Moz said anything about Israel lately?

[gashonthenail]

As ever Gash - you lie. The song separates the people from the army & goes on about virgin priests not telling them who to love. Tel Aviv has sold itself as a gay friendly city - the Israeli government has homophobic members who want to change that.

Turkey is majority muslim country so he doesn't hate their religion or hold their government against them.

“There’s no point in punishing an entire nation for something its leader says or does.”
(Morrissey, Channel 2 News, July 2012)

“I love this city [Tel Aviv]. The rest of the world does not like Israel well. But the people there are very generous and friendly. You should never judge a people by their government. It is very rare for the government to reflect the wishes of the people.'”
(Morrissey, Der Spiegel, November 2017)

Where did I say that the song praises the government of Israel or its army? Or Israel's treatment of Gaza? No one has mentioned that. Just you.
The song praises Israel. Full stop.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

The Jewish clergy does not have a celibacy requirement. The references to virgin priests and Jesus are clearly references to Catholic anti-Semitism, part of the Irish culture which Morrissey grew up in. He himself has even made some casual (and witty) anti-Semitic comments here and there, certainly without malice, but obviously a vestige. The enemies of sex and self-enjoyment in the song are gloomy Christian motifs. I think the Jesus damning them to hell for being happy is a reference to the Jews' troubled history in Europe, where they could never seem to catch a break: no matter how well they did materially, there was always a resentful Christian persecution right around the corner.

Rare for Morrissey's late period output, the lyrics for Israel really seem to have a lot of thought put in. It's why I think it's great even though I'm not a Zionist.

 

[gashonthenail]

Malarkey is (partly) right. Portions of the song are about sex. This is just my interpretation, but since "Israel" in the song is a personification, I think Morrissey sees Israel the modern and tough nation, paired with its gay nightclub scene in Tel Aviv, as a handsome, amoral, sexually liberated thug. For some reason that kind of person has always appealed to Morrissey, and I think the country does too: as a swarthy Levantine criminal aggressor.

Yes, portions of the song allude to sex, and rejecting sexual repression.
My reading of it is that the singer, or the subject of the song (that is always ambiguous in Morrissey's lyrics), compares himself to Israel and Israel's experience in the world. Love yourself, as you should, seems to me the key line in the song.

 

[Malarkey]

Where did I say that the song praises the government of Israel or its army? Or Israel's treatment of Gaza? No one has mentioned that. Just you.
The song praises Israel. Full stop.

And what would your definition of "Israel" be if it didn't include the government & the army - but it does include many Gods, Jesus & Virgin Priests - so it's not a Jewish or Zionist state either?

It's just a place where Morrissey met some people he liked & wrote a song about sex.

 

[gashonthenail]

The Jewish clergy does not have a celibacy requirement. The references to virgin priests and Jesus are clearly references to Catholic anti-Semitism, part of the Irish culture which Morrissey grew up in.

I read that line as relating to the absurdity of Catholic priests (who are celibate) advising people about sexual matters. But you are absolutely right that that line clearly relates to the singer, or the subject of the song, and has nothing to do with Judaism, where priests are not celibate. The song alludes very much to 'Catholic guilt' and not letting others judge you - just as Israel should not let itself be judged by others. And, where I do agree with Malarkey, Israel should not be judged for the actions of its army, or its government.
I always thought the imagery of the song is slightly jumbled - going from Jesus (Christianity), then Hades (Greek mythology), to secularism (flesh and bones and shell), paganism (the fear of many gods), and Roman Catholicism (virgin priests). There is everything in there except Judaism, although Jehovah almost certainly started off a storm god, and there is reference to a dark sky. It could be argued though that the mixing of imagery in this way suits the history of Israel - a country that has been ruled by pagan empires, the Greek empire, the Roman empire etc. - and still remains fought over to this day.

 

[gashonthenail]

And what would your definition of "Israel" be if it didn't include the government & the army - but it does include many Gods, Jesus & Virgin Priests - so it's not a Jewish or Zionist state either?

It's just a place where Morrissey met some people he liked & wrote a song about sex.

Does 'Britain' = the government & the army? of course not.
Israel, like any country, ultimately is its people, its culture etc.
The song is in praise of that, and suggests the Israeli people should feel pride and not shame.

 

[Malarkey]

Does 'Britain' = the government & the army? of course not.
Israel, like any country, ultimately is its people, its culture etc.
The song is in praise of that, and suggests the Israeli people should feel pride and not shame.

He's not writing about one Israeli culture.

He's writing about Jesus, many Gods, & Virgin Priests.

Israel may be the Holy Land - but some people are defying that & loving whoever they want.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

 

[Malarkey]

It's also very similar to things he said about Istanbul.

I had a timid childhood. My past is also full of repression. I still do not know what it means to have fun and to enjoy physically. Istanbul has a feature that dissipates this mood and crisis. When you return to the British land, you are left with the same despair, it’s separate. This is the secret of Istanbul, the people of Istanbul: It is very alive, very real. This is also something I admire. I don’t see myself as a ‘living person’ as much as you do. I’m an extra head in the crowd, that’s all. (Morrissey, Hurriyet, 24 November 2014)

 

[Gregor Samsa]

This thread should have died after its first reply, which should have been ‘no’. You f***ing people..

 

[Lucifer Sam]

I read that line as relating to the absurdity of Catholic priests (who are celibate) advising people about sexual matters. But you are absolutely right that that line clearly relates to the singer, or the subject of the song, and has nothing to do with Judaism, where priests are not celibate. The song alludes very much to 'Catholic guilt' and not letting others judge you - just as Israel should not let itself be judged by others. And, where I do agree with Malarkey, Israel should not be judged for the actions of its army, or its government.
I always thought the imagery of the song is slightly jumbled - going from Jesus (Christianity), then Hades (Greek mythology), to secularism (flesh and bones and shell), paganism (the fear of many gods), and Roman Catholicism (virgin priests). There is everything in there except Judaism, although Jehovah almost certainly started off a storm god, and there is reference to a dark sky. It could be argued though that the mixing of imagery in this way suits the history of Israel - a country that has been ruled by pagan empires, the Greek empire, the Roman empire etc. - and still remains fought over to this day.

I like these kinds of posts, they're the value of fan forums even if we might be dissecting things more than Morrissey intended, but he did give us a rich song. True, the imagery is diverse, but I'd guess he's using Hades rhetorically, as a synonym for the Christian hell; he probably didn't want to use the same word twice. The Greeks didn't consider Hades as a punishment for enjoying your body. It was just the realm of the dead regardless. I take "put the fear of many gods in Israel" as a reference to ancient Israel's pagan neighbors: "all the gods of the Gentiles are devils." Modern Israel with its hostile neighbors, even if they're united under Allah's banner, is in the same spot as ancient Israel: contending with adversaries on nearly every side. Allah himself has been reputed to be a demon named Mahound.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

This thread should have died after its first reply, which should have been ‘no’. You f***ing people..

Oh, come on, Samsa. The question wasn't entirely literal. The implication in the OP was that Morrissey perhaps should be saying something about Israel. He's written a song in praise of a nation that's presently committing war crimes, and this is just my opinion but I don't think a shrug and "I can't answer for what armies do" is sufficient any more. Since Israel keeps getting praised for being a democracy, its apologists (and Morrissey) might want to answer for what its democratically elected government is doing.

 

[gordyboy9]

In Gavin McIness' recent video about attending one of the Moz gigs in New York, he mentions a little story about a fan with an Israeli flag and Morrissey's reaction, though I'm not sure how much truth there is to it, since I've not seen any mention of this elsewhere.

he begins at around 7:33 in this clip:

i watched this video a few weeks ago,think hes more of a fairweather fan as his knowledge is a bit shit.

 

[goinghome]

Israel has military might in obscene excess to the Palestinians and its Arab neighbors, but somehow it's an underdog? No, it's an aggressive bully just like the U.S. is. "We only want peace. Now please move aside for these bulldozers and their armed escorts as they demolish your vineyard and home so we can build a yeshiva for our new community going in here. Your refugee camp is that way." The U.S. is Israel's patron.

Although that support shows that US is also beholden to Israel. For what? Geopolitical reasons? Distracting the fury of surrounding Arab nations for robbery of their land and oil and peoples etc? Maybe some religious too? And financial?

 

[Anonymous]

Morrissey should zip his lip about politics since he knows nothing about what he's talking about, ever.

very good words.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Although that support shows that US is also beholden to Israel. For what? Geopolitical reasons? Distracting the fury of surrounding Arab nations for robbery of their land and oil and peoples etc? Maybe some religious too? And financial?

Yes on all counts. It’s an absurd and potent mix of: Christian Zionism, “git them Muslims,” might makes right, “check out those hotties in the IDF” and “just because the land weeps oil.” Israel doesn’t weep oil itself, of course, but a destabilizing influence in the oil-rich Middle East is always welcome—lest the sheiks of Araby get too big for their britches. The Zionist movement was favored by the British early on for similar reasons.

 

[Redacted]

i watched this video a few weeks ago,think hes more of a fairweather fan as his knowledge is a bit shit.

He is the Canadian founder of the Proud Boys. He has since left, but it's a far/alt Right group, considered terrorist in some parts and white supremacist, etc etc. We don't want him at our party.

 

[gordyboy9]

He is the Canadian founder of the Proud Boys. He has since left, but it's a far/alt Right group, considered terrorist in some parts and white supremacist, etc etc. We don't want him at our party.

wouldnt want him at any party.
as its 60 years since jfk.
jack ruby the man that shot, the man that shot jfk.

 

[gashonthenail]

i watched this video a few weeks ago,think hes more of a fairweather fan as his knowledge is a bit shit.

Yes, indeed, his knowledge of Moz and his music appears very limited.

 

[Israel K.]

I'm glad he hasn't been tricked into making a comment.

You can like the people in a country without liking their appalling government.

You're right. Being supportive of a small country that just experienced the murder and rape over 1,200 of its citizens would be sooooo uncalled for. I appreciate your sophisticated perspective.