If John Lennon was still alive, what would he have thought of the Smiths and Moz?

[StatelyWayneManor]

"If it was a perfect world; Yoko would have jumped in front of John."

As previously mentioned; I think Lennon would have appreciated Morrissey's
sense of humor & the rockabilly elements of his music. Didn't Paul McCartney ask Johhny Marr to be in his live band & Johnny turned down the offer?

 

[mozmic_dancer]

Do punks and teddy boys get along?

John and Morrissey have little bits in common; love of girl groups; interest in the occult; love of cats and both great sense of humor. Lennon may actually have seems similarities in Morrissey to Paul. Both Gemini; both mercurical personalities. He would like him, but never turn his back on him.

John had a problem with Manchester and I'm not sure if it's a football rivalry thing or just some crappy experiences with auditions in the Beatles early days. I remember one fanzine stating that John HATED the Moody Blues for that reason alone. Morrissey at least was signed to DECCA. They were a 3rd rate label in John's day and perhaps even now. Any Beatle fans knows the story about what DECCA said about the Beatles.

Musically, John would have liked the Smiths. There are echos of three chord rock is some Smiths songs as well as 60s type McGuinn-guitar jangling. Morrissey's lyrics about England may have struck a chord with him. Lennon and Morrissey as solo artist have similiar writing styles; using just simple and blunt language to describe very complex emotions and ideas. I think John may have admired how Morrissey throws in words and ideas not usually covered in "pop" songs.

However, both men are of different eras. John generally was a positive person and a bit of an idealist. Morrissey is a realist. May not have made great music together, but perhaps have made a great situation comedy.

 

[nugz]

However, both men are of different eras. John generally was a positive person and a bit of an idealist. Morrissey is a realist. May not have made great music together, but perhaps have made a great situation comedy.

who'd be Felix and who'd be Oscar?

 

[StatelyWayneManor]

If John Lennon was alive today he would be too busy
clawing at the inside of his coffin to care about Morrissey.

 

[mozmic_dancer]

who'd be Felix and who'd be Oscar?

Nugz, I would love to submit a great Photoshop Wow graphic with John's and Morrissey's faces superimposed over this great "Odd Couple" graphic (John/Oscar Morrissey/Felix)

Alas, I no longer have access to my graphic design tools. My job let me go, along with 48 other people in the company I worked for 11 years. Yeah, it blows, but that's just the way it goes.

I smell a Morrissey/Lennon composition in this story.

 

[nugz]

Nugz, I would love to submit a great Photoshop Wow graphic with John's and Morrissey's faces superimposed over this great "Odd Couple" graphic (John/Oscar Morrissey/Felix)

Alas, I no longer have access to my graphic design tools. My job let me go, along with 48 other people in the company I worked for 11 years. Yeah, it blows, but that's just the way it goes.

I smell a Morrissey/Lennon composition in this story.

oh thatd be funny. i dont have those capabilities either. maybe someone else could?? hmm??

 

[Buzzetta]

Stop it.

Remember Jack B?

I am not describing anyone that was in the circle.

 

[troubleluvsme]

I am not describing anyone that was in the circle.

I thought you were making fun of ME....like I was that girl.

 

[Worm]

 

[CrystalGeezer]

John had a problem with Manchester and I'm not sure if it's a football rivalry thing or just some crappy experiences with auditions in the Beatles early days. I remember one fanzine stating that John HATED the Moody Blues for that reason alone. Morrissey at least was signed to DECCA. They were a 3rd rate label in John's day and perhaps even now. Any Beatle fans knows the story about what DECCA said about the Beatles.

Soooooo, the sun's on the phone with the moon and Tuesdays on the phone with who exactly? A father and his daughter watching a bunch of fish imprisoned in a fishtank?

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bPLWBhNW3FM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bPLWBhNW3FM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

I love the Moody Blues.

 

[Corrissey]

'Black Cloud' guitar work similar to Moody Blues 'Question'

Completely off topic, but relating to CG's above post...

The guitar part in Black Cloud at 1:45



totally makes me think of

this work at 4:15



That bugged me for the longest time (what the strumming reminded me of) and I couldn't quite put my finger on it...so now I can finally sleep tonight Thanks for bringing up the Moody Blues, CG. What an AWESOME band!

Didn't think this warranted a new thread

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Corrissey, did you notice?

Solomon is wearing a tshirt from my... wait for it.... Alma Mater.

 

[Corrissey]

Corrissey, did you notice?

Solomon is wearing a tshirt from my... wait for it.... Alma Mater.

One of the only times it’s okay to wear Orange (Krush). The other being Halloween.

 

[Anaesthesine]

I have always found so many things about Lennon repulsive. Give peace a chance but beat your wife. Love Liverpool but leave forever when money allows. The list goes on but I'll never have affection for him. I love Morrissey of course (that IS the point of this site). I have good reason for my feelings and they will not be changed by discussion. Lennon wasn't a nice person therefore I do not like him.

Interesting that a Morrissey fan would find Lennon repulsive - the two have so much in common.

Lennon was an anti-hero who made being scrawny, pale and sensitive heroic. He was willfully contemptuous of the mainstream in his solo work, and deliberately confrontational in his subject matter. He indulged in rabble-rousing of the very highest order.

In addition, Lennon had a terribly dry wit, sang with a voice that was at once aggressive-yet-vulnerable, and had an agenda of social change through art that I think Morrissey would have great sympathy for.

Most of all, both Lennon and Morrissey settled scores musically. They both trashed former bandmates in sarcastic, petulant song. I don't know who is the better musical whinger/score-settler - it's a toss-up.

As for not being a nice person, fair enough; Lennon was a hypocrite, but there are plenty of times when I don't think Morrissey is a particularly nice person, either. Really, both men come across as tempermental, difficult, and obnoxious on their worst days. Lennon left Liverpool to live in New York, Morrissey left Manchester to live in LA (for a while at least).

You don't have to like Lennon - many people don't, but he was a pioneering artist who actually made a difference, and who is fanatically loved by millions for a reason.

 

[Worm]

Interesting that a Morrissey fan would find Lennon repulsive - the two have so much in common.

Lennon was an anti-hero who made being scrawny, pale and sensitive heroic. He was willfully contemptuous of the mainstream in his solo work, and deliberately confrontational in his subject matter. He indulged in rabble-rousing of the very highest order.

In addition, Lennon had a terribly dry wit, sang with a voice that was at once aggressive-yet-vulnerable, and had an agenda of social change through art that I think Morrissey would have great sympathy for.

Most of all, both Lennon and Morrissey settled scores musically. They both trashed former bandmates in sarcastic, petulant song. I don't know who is the better musical whinger/score-settler - it's a toss-up.

As for not being a nice person, fair enough; Lennon was a hypocrite, but there are plenty of times when I don't think Morrissey is a particularly nice person, either. Really, both men come across as tempermental, difficult, and obnoxious on their worst days. Lennon left Liverpool to live in New York, Morrissey left Manchester to live in LA (for a while at least).

You don't have to like Lennon - many people don't, but he was a pioneering artist who actually made a difference, and who is fanatically loved by millions for a reason.

These are all good points. I think people overlook them because where they differ they differ strongly, particularly about life and art. Sometimes the comparisons don't work with careful analysis. You could probably find many parallels between Morrissey and, say, Sting but if you do a simple smell test they're as different as daisies and dogshit. Like you I have a healthy respect for John Lennon but I do tend to think of them as very different people from very different eras.

I completely agree with you on the "hypocrite" angle-- that argument is silly. Gross hypocrites deserve to be called out, but most celebrities are no different than us. They should be allowed their complications. I'm sure this is a random remark to make, but I've always liked Billy Bragg a lot because he described in often very funny ways the challenge of living a "committed" life as a socialist protest singer while being a "regular bloke" trying to get laid. You wonder, though, how much he sacrificed in his honesty and willingness to laugh at himself-- he'd never have gotten to Lennon's level, but did he miss a chance to seize a bigger pulpit by-- strange to say-- having a sense of humor?

Anyway, I've always wondered about Morrissey's opinion of Lennon and The Beatles. The only comment he made about them, as far as I know, was early in The Smiths when he said something grudging like, "Yes, of course, some of their songs are irresistible". He must have a more articulate opinion about The Beatles. Presumably unflattering; his silence on certain subjects is deafening, and he has shown unusual restraint in commenting on the dead (Lennon, Ian Curtis, Kurt Cobain).

 

[Anaesthesine]

These are all good points. I think people overlook them because where they differ they differ strongly, particularly about life and art. Sometimes the comparisons don't work with careful analysis. You could probably find many parallels between Morrissey and, say, Sting but if you do a simple smell test they're as different as daisies and dogshit. Like you I have a healthy respect for John Lennon but I do tend to think of them as very different people from very different eras.

True enough, any skillful debater can make a compelling case for any argument (although I DARE you to make the case for Moz = Sting ). If you look at pop history as a timeline of social change abbetted by creative public personas, however, I think the parallels between Morrissey and Lennon are striking enough to merit at least a thesis or two.

I completely agree with you on the "hypocrite" angle-- that argument is silly. Gross hypocrites deserve to be called out, but most celebrities are no different than us. They should be allowed their complications. I'm sure this is a random remark to make, but I've always liked Billy Bragg a lot because he described in often very funny ways the challenge of living a "committed" life as a socialist protest singer while being a "regular bloke" trying to get laid. You wonder, though, how much he sacrificed in his honesty and willingness to laugh at himself-- he'd never have gotten to Lennon's level, but did he miss a chance to seize a bigger pulpit by-- strange to say-- having a sense of humor?

Billy Bragg has done well enough. Humor is never to be regretted, under any circustances. Bruce Springsteen took to that big pulpit in recent years, and there is a noticeable lack of hilarity when you're preaching on that level.

Anyway, I've always wondered about Morrissey's opinion of Lennon and The Beatles. The only comment he made about them, as far as I know, was early in The Smiths when he said something grudging like, "Yes, of course, some of their songs are irresistible". He must have a more articulate opinion about The Beatles. Presumably unflattering; his silence on certain subjects is deafening, and he has shown unusual restraint in commenting on the dead (Lennon, Ian Curtis, Kurt Cobain).

I have a feeling that Moz isn't very fond of The Beatles. They lack that camp element that Morrissey seems to hold so dear, and The Beatles were never sexually subversive (unless you count those "long" haircuts, but that is history so ancient I cannot quite grasp the truth of it). As for John Lennon, Morrissey may find fault with him for a certain lack of subtlety and style; Lennon was grand, but he was not fabulous.

 

[Worm]

True enough, any skillful debater can make a compelling case for any argument (although I DARE you to make the case for Moz = Sting ). If you look at pop history as a timeline of social change abbetted by creative public personas, however, I think the parallels between Morrissey and Lennon are striking enough to merit at least a thesis or two.

Bait swallowed. You know I'm a sucker.

Sting and Morrissey

• Both use a one-word stage name.
  
• Both are vegetarians.
  
• Both charismatic front-men of important 1980s bands.
  
• Both left their bands-- for different reasons-- at the peak of the band's success and had to live in its shadow for many years.
  
• Both are considered highly articulate lyricists.
  
• Both wear literary influences on their sleeve. Morrissey: Delaney and Wilde primarily, with at least allusions, and sometimes more, to many others (Proust, Greene, Smart, Plath, Smith etc). Sting: Chaucer, Shakespeare, Crisp, Nabokov, etc.
  
• Both show strong support for "-rights" organizations: Morrissey, animal rights (PETA), Sting, human rights (Amnesty International).
  
• In 1995 both were involved in court cases involving millions of pounds.
  
• One of Morrissey's favorite books was "Beyond Belief". Sting wrote a foreword to the book "Yoga Beyond Belief". (Okay, that's stretching things, no pun intended.)

Billy Bragg has done well enough. Humor is never to be regretted, under any circustances. Bruce Springsteen took to that big pulpit in recent years, and there is a noticeable lack of hilarity when you're preaching on that level.

I share that opinion, but just wondering if it's a necessary trade-off. Reach more people without humor or fewer with it? Do you have to be an insufferable prig (e.g. Bono) to get anything done?

As for John Lennon, Morrissey may find fault with him for a certain lack of subtlety and style; Lennon was grand, but he was not fabulous.

Nail on the head!

 

[Mclenarr]

Anyway, I've always wondered about Morrissey's opinion of Lennon and The Beatles. The only comment he made about them, as far as I know, was early in The Smiths when he said something grudging like, "Yes, of course, some of their songs are irresistible". He must have a more articulate opinion about The Beatles. Presumably unflattering; his silence on certain subjects is deafening, and he has shown unusual restraint in commenting on the dead (Lennon, Ian Curtis, Kurt Cobain).

He mentions not owning any Beatle records in his letters to Robert Mackie. Here's the extract:
So sad about John. I almost cried. I have none of this records and didn't care about The Beatles. But when people who devote a part of their lives to 'peace' are shot 5 times for it, well, THAT disturbs me. It's always the wrong people.

I remember him reading years ago in an interview that he saw Joy Division and it left him 'very cold'. and he used the phrase 'the death' but i can't contextualise it more than that!
That's if my memory's not playing tricks on me.

 

[Mclenarr]

Bait swallowed. You know I'm a sucker.

Sting and Morrissey

• Both left their bands-- for different reasons-- at the peak of the band's success and had to live in its shadow for many years.
  

• 
  
  I'm in a louse picking mood...that's not strictly true. Moz didn't leave the Smiths, Johnny did and the Smiths disintegrated around dear Morrissey's blessed head!

 

[Worm]

I'm in a louse picking mood...that's not strictly true. Moz didn't leave the Smiths, Johnny did and the Smiths disintegrated around dear Morrissey's blessed head!

I know. That's why I said "for different reasons". But you are correct, the way I worded it was misleading.