Anyone else rate Mozzer over The Smiths?

[nugz]

I dunno. I might have to go with the "Gay He-man " thread of summer 07, but I do have the maturity level of a 2nd grader, so.

 

[Dave]

Arguably. Look at their singles and some of that fits while others don't, How Soon is Now? That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore, Shoplifters of the World Unite, Girlfriend in a Coma, Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me all aren't exactly poppy. Without a doubt though the Smiths WERE trying to achieve radio play during their career. However, some of the other singles I don't really consider poppy myself either, practically all of them except Stop Me and Ask, (if Stop Me counts.) I think we have a different definition of pop, but songs like I Like You and The More You Ignore Me the Closer I Get are more poppy than anything the Smiths have ever done.


I think I'd agree with you on that. After the Smiths Morrissey wrote more about himself I thought than he did about society as he did with the Smiths. The thing about Morrissey's lyrics in the Smiths is that even though most of them use the first and second person point of view, it's more of just to relate to the person listening than Morrissey himself. I don't think Morrissey is really singing about himself in a lot of his songs in the Smiths, however, when he becomes solo this becomes more apparent. You Are the Quarry, practically the whole album is autobiographical, we get less societal songs we had in the Smiths like Suffer Little Children, the Headmaster Ritual, and others that we love.

Were they written specifically for the radio? No. Maybe with the exception of Ask. I think they just wrote songs and decided to put them on, not the other way around. That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore was not meant to be a single, it has nothing a single needs, and to realize it as one in my view was one of the worst moves of their career, What She Said or Nowhere Fast (especially with the political tone) would had gained them so much more attention.

I don't know what was written for the radio. I don't think that they ever sat down to write a hit song as if they were contracted songwriters. I was just being general to try to give a sense of how I would compare the two things, and I consider it a success that we were able to communicate about it and sort of understand what the other is trying to say.

I Like You is definitely one of his songs that had the biggest potential to be a hit, and if he'd been thinking completely in those terms he might have left out the part about "you see someone you physically despise". I agree with what you're saying and at the same time I am saying that there isn't much danger of Morrissey writing a song for Mariah Carey or Cher anytime soon. He's too perverse, and he does things that limit his chances at mainstream success, so I didn't mean to say he was ever a songwriting prostitute.

You state it better than I did in saying that The Smiths songs were written, seemingly, more about society, and not his personal life. On another level though, I have a hard time realizing sometimes that every single song is not true and autobiographical. Maybe that is in his ability to convey the meaning of the song, a totally different thing than writing it.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

 

[King Leer]

This debate really has legs.

I can't think of much else to add other than that the Smiths get cut a lot more slack for weaker tracks than Moz solo ever would. If Papa Jack was a Smiths album track I guarantee it would not get slammed as much.

Just a side observation, but I think it's interesting that all of Morrissey's main song writing partners (Marr, Whyte, Boorer, Street) have been lighthearted, positive people. Only Vini Reilly seems to mirror some of Morrissey's idiosyncrasies. Would be interesting to see those two reteam but it'll never happen.

 

[Bluebirds]

This debate really has legs.

I can't think of much else to add other than that the Smiths get cut a lot more slack for weaker tracks than Moz solo ever would. If Papa Jack was a Smiths album track I guarantee it would not get slammed as much.

QUOTE]

If the Smiths had released anything as weak as Papa Jack (which I quite like in its Who pastiche kind of way) especially as an album track, then Marr would have pulled the plug there 'n then!

 

[nightingale+therose]

yeahhh, ive actually found that people who i try to get into the whole Smiths/Moz thing....the ones who have shittier taste in music over all...prefer Morrissey solo over the Smiths. the Smiths are too over their head or something. not a very scientific study, but just something ive noticed.

"Taste is first and foremost distaste - disgust and visceral intolerance of the the taste of others".... and here on moz-solo, we can all be smug that our taste is unquestionably fine - regardless of moz incarnation preference!

 

[egosheep]

and here on moz-solo, we can all be smug that our taste is unquestionably fine - regardless of moz incarnation preference!

Yes... except those who hate Johnny Marr for no reason!!

 

[Pokey]

I probably would put Moz over The Smiths .. maybe for sheer amount of content vs the 5 years the smiths had. I think Marr was the best song writer he's worked with, but as a live guitarist I don't think he's all that special. There is no way Jesse can write a song like Johnny could ... but he can play the songs Johnny's written just as well. So that puts Moz as a live performing artist ahead of the smiths.
The solo era performances to me trump the smiths. Of course there is something about the smiths that you couldn't recreate with any other combination, but I don't think that makes it the best.
His early solo work, the stephen street Bona Drag era is absolutely sublime. I think the finest collection of pop songs ever made come from that 88-90 years.

If I were to make a top 10 of my all time favs, I think it would be pretty evenly distributed between the smiths and morrissey, but extend it to a top 20 or 25 and I think Moz solo would increase in numbers.

 

[King Leer]

I chose PJ because it's so often a target. I think it's a very minor album track but it has its pluses.

Okay I'll flip it around to lyrics -- if Some Girls.. was a Moz-solo track the lyrics would be slated and if Daddy's Voice was a Smiths song it would be more revered.

One way to partially prove all this is to ask people with an appreciation for music and words who don't know anything about the Smiths/Morrissey what they think.

This debate really has legs.

I can't think of much else to add other than that the Smiths get cut a lot more slack for weaker tracks than Moz solo ever would. If Papa Jack was a Smiths album track I guarantee it would not get slammed as much.

QUOTE]

If the Smiths had released anything as weak as Papa Jack (which I quite like in its Who pastiche kind of way) especially as an album track, then Marr would have pulled the plug there 'n then!

 

[egosheep]

I think Marr was the best song writer he's worked with, but as a live guitarist I don't think he's all that special. There is no way Jesse can write a song like Johnny could ... but he can play the songs Johnny's written just as well. So that puts Moz as a live performing artist ahead of the smiths.

You should hear some more Smiths shows... Johnny is a genius, he played scores of shows with the Smiths and never played a bad one that I have heard. He was a total technical professional but he always played with passion.

To say that Jesse can play Smiths songs just as well, is totally ridiculous. To paraphrase Noel Gallagher, not even Johnny Marr can play like Johnny Marr.

 

[Bluebirds]

I chose PJ because it's so often a target. I think it's a very minor album track but it has its pluses.

Okay I'll flip it around to lyrics -- if Some Girls.. was a Moz-solo track the lyrics would be slated and if Daddy's Voice was a Smiths song it would be more revered.

Interesting. Definitely concur with Some Girls. Having seen Daddy's Voice as a rather ill-conceived encore I can't get my head around that one!!! (Plus its 6am and I've been on nightshift all night!) SUrely people with an appreciation of music and words know already about Morrissey and The smiths

 

[Pokey]

You should hear some more Smiths shows... Johnny is a genius, he played scores of shows with the Smiths and never played a bad one that I have heard. He was a total technical professional but he always played with passion.

To say that Jesse can play Smiths songs just as well, is totally ridiculous. To paraphrase Noel Gallagher, not even Johnny Marr can play like Johnny Marr.

I've heard plecnty of smiths shows.. Admittedly never got to see them live but I don't think that matters. I just don't think that Johnny was all that amazing live. Master song writer but once he's written them it doesn't take much to play them.

 

[egosheep]

I just don't think that Johnny was all that amazing live. Master song writer but once he's written them it doesn't take much to play them.

So would you say the Smiths were a mediocre live band?

I think if either case could be made, it's that they were better live than on record, because of the sometimes abysmal production, especially the debut album.

You're right, it's effortless for Johnny to play the parts that he's written, but he's just making the near impossible look easy. What exactly is your criticism? Are you saying you would more appreciate hearing a "master songwriter" play his own songs poorly?

Or in the case of Jesse and Boz, someone else playing his songs poorly?

 

[Worm]

Let's "flip it" one more time and ask who in their right mind would listen to an instrumental version of "Papa Jack"?

Meanwhile the instrumental version of "Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others" would be better than a minimum of 1/3 of Morrissey's catalog-- with or without vocals. There are bootlegs of Smiths soundchecks, sans Morrissey, that I would choose over half the tracks on "Maladjusted", if I could only pick one set or the other.

 

[Worm]

One way to partially prove all this is to ask people with an appreciation for music and words who don't know anything about the Smiths/Morrissey what they think.

I've experienced such encounters many, many times over the years. The Smiths always commanded respect. Never have I heard anyone, ever, compliment the music on a Morrissey solo track. On the other hand I've met some music fans who valued musicians highly and they had no problem admitting they disliked The Smiths but respected and liked Johnny Marr. They wrinkled their noses at The Smiths but knew the names of a handful of songs (including not-popular ones) and, obviously, could name the guitar player. I knew one guy who said he would strangle Morrissey with his bare hands but (begrudgingly) told me "What Difference Does It Make" was one of his favorite songs.

Of course this proves absolutely nothing but it's probably worth sharing because some of us can't believe this is even a tongue-in-cheek debate. Saying Morrissey solo is as good or better than The Smiths is fine-- nobody can argue with taste, if you like it you like it-- but on the question of musicianship it's as obvious as snow.

 

[Ryan]

I prefer Moz solo to The Smiths.

 

[yesitis]

i prefer the sonics.

 

[bagface]

i prefer morrissey solo to the smiths

 

[modrevolve]

My answer as well..Plus Johnny was like 22/23 at the time most of that music was written was is unreal in itself.

There is no debate, no debate, no debate.
The Smths

Jukebox Jury

 

[King Leer]

And I have friends who could never stand Morrissey but thought the music on Your Arsenal was excellent because they liked Ronson/Bowie/Bolan yet had nothing much to say about The Smiths.

In your anecdotes you're still talking about people who know who Johnny Marr is. I still believe if you played someone, who knew nothing, tracks like I've Changed My Plea, Everyday is Like Sunday, Now My Heart is Full or Pigsty to name a few next to Smiths classics they would not automatically say the latter is superior to the former, lyrically or musically.

I've experienced such encounters many, many times over the years. The Smiths always commanded respect. Never have I heard anyone, ever, compliment the music on a Morrissey solo track. On the other hand I've met some music fans who valued musicians highly and they had no problem admitting they disliked The Smiths but respected and liked Johnny Marr. They wrinkled their noses at The Smiths but knew the names of a handful of songs (including not-popular ones) and, obviously, could name the guitar player. I knew one guy who said he would strangle Morrissey with his bare hands but (begrudgingly) told me "What Difference Does It Make" was one of his favorite songs.

Of course this proves absolutely nothing but it's probably worth sharing because some of us can't believe this is even a tongue-in-cheek debate. Saying Morrissey solo is as good or better than The Smiths is fine-- nobody can argue with taste, if you like it you like it-- but on the question of musicianship it's as obvious as snow.

 

[nightingale+therose]

Given the musical guff that is available to all and sundry in the charts nowadays, i think it pointless to argue over Mozz's contributions at different points in time. Whether as a solo artist or with The Smiths - he is still a million miles ahead of todays chart toppers!

The Smiths changed music - they were visionaries. They covered issues that were previously untouchable, changed perceptions of what it is to be a pop star, and wrote such bloody fine tunes that they are still played regularly the world over. Morrissey has continued in his solo career where he left off with The Smiths.... still controversial, still redefining stardom and still redefining pop lyrically and musically. Hurrah for Moz.